The reverse job applicant • Hacker News Board

Re: The reverse job applicant

#241

Post by mirkules » Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 12:18 AM UTC

randomtask wrote: post #159

run4yourlives wrote: post #72

If you really care which programming languages I already know or which applications I have used before, I can only assume that you're overlooking my ability to quickly pick up new technologies and adjust to new ways of thinking. I would encourage you to correct this, as it is a mistake. I know it's tongue in cheek, but my god does the current generation not have any humility at all? This is going to ruin your world v…

You know nothing of his situation and yet are willing to cast aspersions on his character. Before you go tarring a whole generation with the "entitled" label perhaps a little context from the generation that lacks humility might be in order. Friends of mine are in the same position as this guy. They recently graduated with good degrees from a decent university with no allusions that finding a job was going to be anyt…

In addition to all the comments to your post, I wanted to highlight this sentence: "Most of the time they get no reply from these companies (fair enough)"

I don't agree that it's "fair enough". Rejection letters used to be actual letters in the mail -- it was someone's job to fill in the applicant's name, put their address on an envelope and stick it in the mailbox. The point being, these used to cost the worker's wage, and companies went out of their way to send them. (If anyone could find a reason why they did this other than courtesy, please fill me in)

Now, in an era where communication is INFINITELY easier than it was even 20 years ago, companies suddenly don't have the decency to click "reply" and insert your name in a template.

Why is that?

I think that this lack of professionalism translates into posts like "reverse job application," because, yes, it IS very frustrating looking for a job as a new grad and being rejected without apparent reason or the common courtesy of an answer, watching your peers climb through the ranks, while you slip further and further into unemployable territory because you've been out of a job for so long. If the "reverse application" seems unprofessional, it is only because all he has seen is unprofessionalism in return.

I would have done things a little differently (i.e. included my skills and a resume), but applaud his decision to do something different.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I do agree that my generation is too entitled; I just wanted to also point out that the hiring process would be a lot easier for both sides if we had the same professional courtesy that we witnessed 20 years ago.

Re: The reverse job applicant

#242

Post by brianbreslin » Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 12:45 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #219

n8tron wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My generation has been described as entitled. Quite frankly, I do feel as if I am owed something, and that society at large has failed to keep its end of the bargain. This quote also hits the nail on the head for many of the older generations posting here. The fact you feel entitled to anything is the source of much grief. I'm part of your generation, but through the professional experience I've gained in the past 8…

"The fact you feel entitled to anything is the source of much grief." IMHO the younger generation isn't nearly entitled enough, and it's going to result in a lot of violence within our lifetime.

what do you mean by violence? care to elaborate (and explain the correlation)?

Re: The reverse job applicant

#243

Post by loup-vaillant » Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 12:57 AM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #151

jemfinch wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm calling you not particularly self-aware. Based on no real data except your prejudices. > Unless that language is so domain specific that there's no room for design or so derivative that you can apply another language's style 100%, you almost definitely still have more to learn after 2 weeks. There's a vast chasm between "understands the language's semantics" and "has no more to learn." I've been programming for…

Well, I suppose we're operating with a different definition of "understand", regarding the semantics. RE: Sawzall, haven't used it, but assuming it's similar to Pig, that's pretty domain specific. You'll probably write different code a year from now than you're writing now, though.

It's more than your respective definition of "understand". You learn differently.

You sound like a "practice" guy. To learn a language, you need to see and write code in that language. You take a good look at the standard library, you practice, you learn the trivia, how things are done, and as you become proficient, you acquire a good intuition of the language semantics.

jemfinch, on the other hand, is more a "theory" guy. To learn a language he needs the (reference) manual. He reads it, compares the various features of the new language with the ones he already know, which let him get the semantics fairly quickly. Proficiency only comes when he learns the trivia as he needed, with practice.

The difference between the two of you is that for you, understanding takes practice, while for him, it's a prerequisite to practice. You could argue that both approaches eventually amounts to the same (to write actual code, you need proficiency anyway), but they do not.

Programming languages aren't just rigid tools your boss forces you to use (or at least they shouldn't be). They're something you should chose, and sometimes transform, or even build. In such cases, you often need to choose between several languages, some of which you never practised. Some in which no code were written yet. So you need to judge the languages for themselves.

Furthermore, the "practice first" approach tend to make you blindly parrot current styles. That makes you more likely repeat past mistakes without realizing it. The "understanding first" approach may be more error prone at first, but at least here you can confront 2 styles (your own, and the established practice), and challenge either of them.

Re: The reverse job applicant

#244

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 1:03 AM UTC

run4yourlives wrote: post #235

Kadrith wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree, I only went to one college class on psychology before dropping out. Currently I'm the IT Security Officer for a half billion dollar health network. I'm not the normal person without a degree, but the time I didn't spend in college/university was spent learning about computer security. I didn't blame anyone for things not turning out how I wanted, I did something about it. Someone once told me t…

I don't have a degree either, but if you have one and are complaining about lack of opportunity, I'm the wrong person to talk to. :)

[deleted]

Re: The reverse job applicant

#245

Post by chubs » Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 1:06 AM UTC

danhak wrote: post #162

randomtask wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know nothing of his situation and yet are willing to cast aspersions on his character. Before you go tarring a whole generation with the "entitled" label perhaps a little context from the generation that lacks humility might be in order. Friends of mine are in the same position as this guy. They recently graduated with good degrees from a decent university with no allusions that finding a job was going to be anyt…

I cannot explain how much you have hit the nail on the head. I graduated from college in May and have been having the exact experience you describe. My generation has been described as entitled. Quite frankly, I do feel as if I am owed something, and that society at large has failed to keep its end of the bargain. For my entire life, I was told that if I work hard in school, bust my ass to go to a good university and…

Go - find some friends in a similar situation, and start a business. It's what i bitterly regret not doing when i graduated, but the job market was too good to pass up. Your situation may be a blessing in disguise, when in 10 years time you may be a rich co-director at a flourishing IT company, whereas i'll still be stuck as a wage slave. It is much easier for you to start a business, as you presumably are young with no kids/mortgage/wife to support.

Re: The reverse job applicant

#246

Post by cyen » Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 1:08 AM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #206

danhak wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot explain how much you have hit the nail on the head. I graduated from college in May and have been having the exact experience you describe. My generation has been described as entitled. Quite frankly, I do feel as if I am owed something, and that society at large has failed to keep its end of the bargain. For my entire life, I was told that if I work hard in school, bust my ass to go to a good university and…

Society didn't lie to you, society never struck a bargain with you. Your parents may have lied to you, maybe your teachers too. Whoever it was that lied, it wasn't us . It probably wasn't malicious, some people are/were genuinely extremely misguided about how the world operates (protip: not as differently as before). Here's what happened: you abdicated your responsibility in one of the most important aspects of your…

- polish your resume, learn how to introduce yourself. Find a friend, practice if you must.

To be honest, this is huge - looking at his resume, the only thing that makes it look like he did something significant is his sweet dreams/soundscapes project. Everything else under "experience" - which stands for "work experience," which is what he's applying for - discusses learnings.

What did he do during that time? He spent 6 months working in his university's computer vision lab, which sounds awesome - and he "learned how to take several ideas and combine them into a single result that highlights their strengths while nullifying their weaknesses."

That's incredibly vague - I'm glad he learned, but it's a cliche by now that you should be using "action verbs" in your resume ("built," "designed," "debugged," etc.)

Launch and iterate, right? That works for this process as well - send out your resume, and if you don't get the responses you want, tweak your resume and send out another wave.

Re: The reverse job applicant

#247

Post by risotto » Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 1:08 AM UTC

Getting a job is about networking. My little brother graduated this past summer from University with an gasp Anthropology degree and he has 3 job offers to decide from.

The big difference is that he schmoozed the shit out of his TAs and professors for the past couple years. His advisors were basically falling over recommending him to their peers.

I doubt this reverse job application will work. Networking with friends and peers will.

Re: The reverse job applicant

#248

Post by pak » Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 1:08 AM UTC

terra_t wrote: post #214

maxawaytoolong wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good post, but society did kinda lie. From your mom to Mr. T to the President of the United States, the school-is-cool, just stay in school and you'll get a job meme has been pretty prevalent since I was a child, and I'm old.

You know what pisses me off. There's this continuous drumbeating that we need to produce more scientists and engineers. So I went and got a PhD in Physics. By the time I got my PhD, the American Physical Society announces that they estimate that 3% of my graduating class would get permanent jobs in their field. So, the physics PhD mill encourages a few thousand of our brightest young people every year to spend 5-9 ye…

Quant hedge funds, maybe?

I know a few that suck up physics and math PhD's dissuaded by dwindling academia/research. Perhaps it's a soul-draining job, but the pay is good. Most likely you will have to program, but since you're here I don't think that will be a problem.

Re: The reverse job applicant

#249

Post by terra_t » Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 1:16 AM UTC

pak wrote: post #248

terra_t wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what pisses me off. There's this continuous drumbeating that we need to produce more scientists and engineers. So I went and got a PhD in Physics. By the time I got my PhD, the American Physical Society announces that they estimate that 3% of my graduating class would get permanent jobs in their field. So, the physics PhD mill encourages a few thousand of our brightest young people every year to spend 5-9 ye…

Quant hedge funds, maybe? I know a few that suck up physics and math PhD's dissuaded by dwindling academia/research. Perhaps it's a soul-draining job, but the pay is good. Most likely you will have to program, but since you're here I don't think that will be a problem.

I end up talking to recruiters from D.E. Shaw just about every six months. One time I showed up at a conference Sun put on in the city and asked a question about using the hardware for main memory databases and that got the attention of one of them.

Hedge funds are pretty cool and pretty lucrative, but the only thing I really want to do now is information extraction, semantic databases, stuff like that. Finish the job that Doug Lenat started. And if you think that's crazy, you're one less competitor that I have.

Re: The reverse job applicant

#250

Post by anthuswilliams » Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 1:18 AM UTC

n8tron wrote: post #179

danhak wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot explain how much you have hit the nail on the head. I graduated from college in May and have been having the exact experience you describe. My generation has been described as entitled. Quite frankly, I do feel as if I am owed something, and that society at large has failed to keep its end of the bargain. For my entire life, I was told that if I work hard in school, bust my ass to go to a good university and…

My generation has been described as entitled. Quite frankly, I do feel as if I am owed something, and that society at large has failed to keep its end of the bargain. This quote also hits the nail on the head for many of the older generations posting here. The fact you feel entitled to anything is the source of much grief. I'm part of your generation, but through the professional experience I've gained in the past 8…

>> I've realized that entitlement hurts you much more than it helps.

I think this is the biggest problem with entitlement. Not that it's annoying and presumptuous, not that it's A Sympton Of Everything That's Wrong In Our Society (TM), but simply that it hurts the entitled.

A lot of what we interpret as entitlement is just a focal inaccuracy. In school, we're judged, more or less, on the quality of our own work. A teacher or other official who makes a decision based on his personal preference is viewed to be unfair. With the job market, however, as with dating, it's never about the applicant, only about the decision-maker.

We come out of school thinking we'll be judged on our merits, but we won't. Interestingly, that realization not only helps people ignore rejection, but also prompts them to take initiative to stand apart from the crowd, thereby making rejection less frequent.