Let Teenagers Sleep In • Hacker News Board

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#241

Post by droopybuns » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

lamontcg wrote: post #186

droopybuns wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I'm never going to become an early riser. FWIW: I used to feel this way before I entered my 40’s.

I'm 46, still not an early riser. I sometimes wake up early, usually due to a bit of stress, but that just messes me up worse since I can't shift my schedule backwards (jetlag going West-to-East is hellish for me). I have become more 'rigid' in my sleep schedule which is better for fitting in with the rest of society than the phase I went through in college when I was on a 26-hour sleep schedule and every 2 weeks I'd…

>> but the stress itself from not getting enough sleep can cause me to get up early again in a bit of a viscious cycle

This resonates with me.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#242

Post by closeparen » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:39 PM UTC

thrower123 wrote: post #240

closeparen wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If kids can’t get themselves to school by their teenage years, something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning. A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around. My daily treks to middle and high school were parades of pedestrians, bikes, and kick scooters through the suburban streets.

Rural school districts might serve a 20-30 mile radius. You have to drive or ride the bus.

Only about 20% of the population is rural.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#243

Post by philwelch » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:46 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #146

annywhey wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, direct pay for attendance would be a great incentive for the poorest demographics. A few dollars can be make-or-break at the margin and even greedy parents that misuse the funds would end up wanting to get the kid showing up and not getting in fights - the bare minimum for a school day to go by undisturbed.

I'd be all for that, as long as there were negative penalties as well. E.g. Disturbing class = no points. Failing homework = no points. Failing test = losing all accumulated points. Failing end of year exams for the subject = lose all money for that subject. I.e. Attendance is only part of the equation, actually fostering learning/growth is what you really want, even if it's semi-artificial. Otherwise you're just mak…

The problem with that is that low-income families either plain can't afford, or tend to be completely bad at delaying gratification for long-term rewards.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#244

Post by sizzle » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:47 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #235

lamontcg wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to do the following: - I can't eat any junk food pretty much at all (pizza is a particular trigger food -- salt/MSG, i dunno?) - I can't eat anything late - I have to take a melatonin an hour before bedtime - At least 20 minutes before bedtime I have to put on a sleep mask and just start really winding down. Often this is more like 60 minutes before bedtime. This is just lying on my back and not really trying…

> we've all collectively heard nearly everything that you can suggest Have you heard it suggested that insomnia is frequently a symptom of ADHD? I have ADHD. It was undiagnosed until I was 22. And, through my whole life until that point, my sleep was "delicate" in the way you're describing, requiring careful set-up to avoid insomnia. Then I was diagnosed with, and medicated for, ADHD. Sleep is pretty easy now. No car…

My experience with amp induced comedown can only be described as a sharp onset of malaise that rapidly increases in intensity to the point you feel subdued and hostage to your impulses where normal tasks like flossing your teeth are met with dread and take a ridiculous amount of willpower that is simply overridden by dopamine producing activities such as using a smartphone. This really messed with my sleep schedule cause I could not make it to bed when my brain was held hostage by depleted dopamine neurotransmitters.

The obvious solution is to prep for bed early on meds but why waste that precious, fleeting neurotypical window of mental clarity flossing my teeth when I need it to perform cognitively during the day. This is on 50mg/day

I wish my brain was neurotypical. I'm a slave to these pills now cause stopping now literally leaves you in bed for days and you never really recover and bounce back after 5+ years of dopamine down-regulation in your brain.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#245

Post by derefr » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

sizzle wrote: post #244

derefr wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we've all collectively heard nearly everything that you can suggest Have you heard it suggested that insomnia is frequently a symptom of ADHD? I have ADHD. It was undiagnosed until I was 22. And, through my whole life until that point, my sleep was "delicate" in the way you're describing, requiring careful set-up to avoid insomnia. Then I was diagnosed with, and medicated for, ADHD. Sleep is pretty easy now. No car…

My experience with amp induced comedown can only be described as a sharp onset of malaise that rapidly increases in intensity to the point you feel subdued and hostage to your impulses where normal tasks like flossing your teeth are met with dread and take a ridiculous amount of willpower that is simply overridden by dopamine producing activities such as using a smartphone. This really messed with my sleep schedule c…

What drug? The come-down from Vyvanse is very gentle.

(Really, it lasts long enough for a person of average metabolism that what you experience in the evening isn't even the withdrawal, but just the tail-end of the dose, where there's slightly less of it. To experience the withdrawal, you have to stay up ~18 hours after taking it. Even then, from the few times I've had to stay awake for other reasons, it's still what I'd describe as "gentle"; but it does do interesting things to your dreams when it hits while you're sleeping, until your brain gets used to it. Personally, my dopamine-crashes-during-sleep gave me dreams with the exact visual character of Zdzisław Beksiński paintings. Oddly, no emotional affect associated—such visuals are not scary or unsettling, as they "should" be—they're just... what your brain is doing, trying to suddenly elevate noisy sensory data to salience and ignore the model saying "you're sleeping, that stuff is meaningless." Like an extremely low-light picture causing noise on a camera sensor, crossed with DeepDream processing.)

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#246

Post by Retric » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #233

lamontcg wrote: post #154

I used to need 9.5 hours of sleep as a teenager and probably had diagnosable delayed sleep phase disorder. Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to be…

I used to believe like you do. What I believed to be my natural schedule--what I naturally gravitated to--was the nite-owl 1am to between 9-10am or so sleep schedule. In school, I always felt sleep deprived when I had to wake up around 6. But I recently spent the better part of five months going to bed at 9:30pm and waking up at 4:30am. Despite getting less sleep overall, I've never felt as well rested or alert throu…

Sleep schedules dramatically change with age and a lot of sub conscious stimuli. So, don't try and generalize from what works for any one person.

EX: I have started to get up around 6am even if the room is dark and I am not getting enough sleep. I find it annoying, and nothing changed but my age.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#247

Post by Jedd » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 8:02 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #75

Jedd wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's the elephant in the room. High schools start and end earlier with the idea that older kids can watch their siblings. That's an interesting postulation, but is it born out by societies where most families have a single child? What were the child care options like at the time that the current school hours were developed (I'm guessing this is close to a century ago). Do all relatively-civilised societies have t…

> What were the child care options like at the time that the current school hours were developed (I'm guessing this is close to a century ago). Unless you also consider how likely it is that Mom is working I'm not sure that's the way I'd do it, especially because school officials explicitly say they do what they are doing because of this issue, and also, why do you think the article mentioned childcare? > My gut feel…

> Unless you also consider how likely it is that Mom is working ..

I did consider that, and factored it into the historical shift in attitudes about both parents working, compared to when school hours were determined.

> ... especially because school officials explicitly say they do what they are doing because of this issue, and also, why do you think the article mentioned childcare?

You're assuming your school officials are fully cognisant of post hoc ergo propter hoc

It's possible childcare is the easy option and doesn't require much pondering or historical analysis.

As I noted, correlating how things are done there to elsewhere in the world, and elsewhere in time, may be informative in determining actual causation, rather than just correlation.

> Think about this for a second. Mom and Dad work from 9:00-5:00 and then have an hour+ of commuting to do. All the schools get at or before 5:00. Is it more desirable for high schooler Joseph to get home before his 8-year-old sister, or the other way around?

Yeah, you're making quite a few assumptions. I'm not sure how old Joseph is meant to be in this anecdote, but presumably older than 8yo, and (also presumably) attends a different school. The idea that different aged children attend significantly different geographical / scheduled schools is relatively modern too (I'd suggest a much more recent change than determination of school hours).

No, as I said before, I suspect this is all much more simply ascribed to doing what seemed appropriate at the time (aligning to a standard adult work schedules) and determined in the absence of any good understanding of circadian rhythms, variations during development, and importance of 8 hours sleep.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#248

Post by rerx » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 8:03 PM UTC

GavinMcG wrote: post #127

rerx wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depriving people (especially, but not only, adolescents) off their sleep is disastrous for their mental health. For instance ADHD may be linked to lack of sleep (Walker suggests this in his book, I don't know how strongly this is backed by studies). Since by now we know that sleep times are driven by physiological factors to a large degree, I find it inhumane to not take these factors into account in scheduling.

Though it's not that simple; isolated use of sleep deprivation can be an effective treatment for at least one mental health issue: https://mosaicscience.com/story/staying-awake-surprisingly-e...

Walker sounds quite sceptical of this story in his book, sleep deprivation may be effective as treatment in some cases, but could be a cause of depression in more cases.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#249

Post by sizzle » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #245

sizzle wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with amp induced comedown can only be described as a sharp onset of malaise that rapidly increases in intensity to the point you feel subdued and hostage to your impulses where normal tasks like flossing your teeth are met with dread and take a ridiculous amount of willpower that is simply overridden by dopamine producing activities such as using a smartphone. This really messed with my sleep schedule c…

What drug? The come-down from Vyvanse is very gentle. (Really, it lasts long enough for a person of average metabolism that what you experience in the evening isn't even the withdrawal , but just the tail-end of the dose, where there's slightly less of it. To experience the withdrawal , you have to stay up ~18 hours after taking it. Even then, from the few times I've had to stay awake for other reasons, it's still wh…

Amphetamine salts instant release (10mg x 2) and extended release beads (30mg x 1) across the whole day. Make I'll try dexadrine and then vynase, but I recall vynase is converted to a lower level of amphetamine in the body than straight amphetamine?

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#250

Post by arkh » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #224

lamontcg wrote: post #154

I used to need 9.5 hours of sleep as a teenager and probably had diagnosable delayed sleep phase disorder. Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to be…

> Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to bed, early to rise" and flat-out discriminate against people with sleep disorders. tbh, i doubt the time th…

> given that school also serves the purpose of gov't sponsored day care, i'm not sure what they could really do better aside from granting tardiness allowances for students with bona-fide sleeping disorders.

Remote school. Lot of things could be learned and done from home. Then you can stagger your buses from 11am to noon for those who require communal food then group activities (art, sports etc.).