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Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

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Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#241

Post by redisman »

jchw wrote: post #194
acdha wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a household name because of speculation, however, and statistically almost nobody uses it for the kind of decentralized transactions for which it was originally pitched. The number of vendors accepting it has gone down over time (e.g. Steam, Microsoft) due to the endemic problems and many of the people who claim to use it (even here) are actually using the credit card network with government currencies for the a…

I can use Bitcoin today, right now, right here. I actually do occasionally, it's how I pay for VPN service. So is it a failure? No. It's a successful payment network. It didn't cause a libertarian Utopia or whatever, but that's a pretty lofty goal for a conceptual currency based on cryptographic hashing. I have nothing else to say here.

That's also a goal bestowed on Bitcoin by 3rd parties. I don't think the original paper mentioned anything about libertarian wet dreams.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#242

Post by prostoalex »

gammateam wrote: post #111

First, use in commerce peaked when transaction fees went too high in 2017, and consumers didn't try the shitty user experience again okay, temporary problem the payment processor's user experience kind of sucks and the network didn't help that better UX and lightning network will help with that. There are also some BIPs regarding signing transactions differently, as well as smaller transactions coming. This year, 201…

Fundamentally, though, a consumer in a developed economy with high degree of e-commerce has access to a credit card / PayPal / AliPay -like set of tools, that allow for

* cash back (and similar incentives like airline miles)

* transaction reversal

* consumer protection in case a purchased iPhone X arrives broken due to an unscrupulous seller

* custom perks, like extended warranties for consumer electronics, travel insurance or additional coverage for a rented vehicle

Even if you have a better UX, what are the incentives for consumer to switch away into BTC? A 2% discount compared to credit card payment?

The higher the item price, the stronger is the incentive to employ some consumer protection mechanisms.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#243

Post by cirgue »

conanbatt wrote: post #151
TACIXAT wrote: post #21

A currency with no mechanism for monetary policy is not going to be adopted. Bitcoin is purely deflationary for more reasons than just people losing their keys. For example, a fixed reward split between a growing group of miners will also cause a rising price floor. The miners will not sell for less than their electricity costs, which makes the smaller piece of the block reward they receive have a higher price. So yo…

I disagree with several of your statements. First, bitcoin has a monetary policy, and the key is that it cant be changed, which is very appealing: more appealing that storing gold vs fiat, since gold has a less predictable monetary policy. Gold had been chosen as currency for most of history, across cultures and languages. In countries where the currency breaks down, things like chocolate, potatoes or corn get into c…

> being deflationary predictably is better than unpredictably inflationary.

Unpredictable deflation is what bitcoin does, and with a fixed policy it can never do anything else. The amount of wealth generated by an economy grows in an unpredictable manner, and fixed monetary policy translates that fluctuation directly into the value of the currency. We learned this with metal currency. It didn’t go well.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#244

Post by willio58 »

cc439 wrote: post #186
lisper wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> verifying it is easy Actually, it's not. It's nearly impossible to non-destructively distinguish gold from tungsten wrapped in gold.

That's why it makes senss to only buy gold cast in a thin shape (like a coin). It's much harder to cast in any meaningfully large tungsten core and it significantly raises the likelihood of that fake core being discovered as one can verify the authenticity of the gold piece by scraping away a millimeter or two of gold using basic hand tools. Considering how expensive gold is per ounce, it's not like any of us will be…

Maybe not those massive bars, but if we’re talking about being in a country where you can’t trust the government at all with the currency, wouldn’t you want to store most of your savings in gold or something similar? So just thousands of coins I guess? Arr me matey

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#245

Post by adventured »

cc439 wrote: post #191
bobthepanda wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can literally go to a gold dealer shop; it's like forex for gold. Even in my moderately sized American city there are twenty that show up in Google Maps within a twenty minute drive. And you buy gold and it's physically in your possession; verifying it is easy, and the best part is you can verify it at some other gold dealer if you're super paranoid. With BTC, you have to find a trusted exchange and a trusted wal…

Do you have any first hand experience with buying gold from local dealers? I've never really looked into it but the vast majority of gold dealers in my city are also pawn shops geared toward purchasing gold rather than selling it. While I'm unsure as to their exact pricing model for selling gold, the way in which pawn shops are known to buy precious metals leads me to believe I'd be paying significantly more than wha…

The safest way to buy physical gold is directly from a mint like the US or Canadian mint (obviously assuming you trust the government/mint in question).

The next best is to use a trusted dealer and buy the mint products that have verifiable serial numbers. For example:

https://www.apmex.com/product/98353/1-oz-gold-bar-royal-cana...

Canadian Mint 1oz bar, at a small mark-up over the price of gold. Comes sealed and has a serial number.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#246

Post by tedunangst »

mathattack wrote: post #236
sorokod wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what happens when one actually does wants to liquidate?

Go into another currency. (Yes it’s risky, but not compared to cash in Venezuela)

How does one liquidate an illiquid asset into another currency?

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#247

Post by mr_theopolis »

The problem with bitcoin as a currency or a store of value is simpler than all these comments.

It is not secure.

If I own gold, I own the gold, nobody can take it from me without physical access to it.

If I own bitcoin, I own a transaction on a ledger. I don't own that ledger. The majority miners control the ledger.

A miner who has 50% of hashing power (actually less, when selfish mining) completely owns and controls the ledger. They can erase any transactions they want, block transactions and double spend.

You don't have that with gold, you actually own the gold.

Bitcoin Gold was the same source code and same ledger as bitcoin (no extra words) and it was double spent in exactly that way.

The whole system was designed to make the people who created the fake money a lot of money, it wasn't designed to run forever. They've made their 100s of millions+ and more. Beyond their wildest dreams. It's a simple pyramid scheme designed to run as long as possible.

It is not a currency. It is not a store of value. It is a worthless asset being traded back and forth by people losing money in a less than zero sum game. Less than zero because money is going to miners and exchanges who facilitate the game.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#248

Post by msie »

safgasCVS wrote: post #141
dmichulke wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

South Africa I presume

Yup

Well, the issue is complex and not as clear cut as Trump or Fox News would say. For example, land seized during apartheid has to be returned. Of course this would mean some white farmers would have to give back some of their land.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#249

Post by sudomake »

forgotmypw wrote: post #53
osrec wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is by definition deflationary due to its restricted supply. This would not be so much of a problem at the moment, if it wasn't for the fact that people started treating it as an asset in its own right, rather than an experimental medium of exchange. Most people have lost sight of the fact that it is the first iteration of a series of experiments to create a decentralised mechanism of value transfer. It wasn't goin…

I think of Bit<oin as the MS-DOS of e1e<troni< <urren<ies.

MS-DOS was successful. Perhaps CPM is a better choice?

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#250

Post by TACIXAT »

jstanley wrote: post #34
TACIXAT wrote: post #21

A currency with no mechanism for monetary policy is not going to be adopted. Bitcoin is purely deflationary for more reasons than just people losing their keys. For example, a fixed reward split between a growing group of miners will also cause a rising price floor. The miners will not sell for less than their electricity costs, which makes the smaller piece of the block reward they receive have a higher price. So yo…

> The miners will not sell for less than their electricity costs, which makes the smaller piece of the block reward they receive have a higher price. That's not how it works. If you spent $100 in electricity and you have an asset that's worth $50, you can either sell it for $50 and only be down $50 on your electricity, or you can not sell it at all and be down $100 on your electricity. Electricity cost of mining does…

You can sell at a loss if the asset is dying off, but for the most part an actor isn't going to sell for less than their costs.
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