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Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

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Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#241

Post by dwaite »

dylan604 wrote: post #163
toomuchtodo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re also trying to push Walmart Pay as well. At their scale, it’s worth it. Despite the pain, I still think Walmart should’ve acquired and rebranded a bank, and offered financial products. Would do wonders for the unbanked, while keeping their transaction fees down.

> They’re also trying to push Walmart Pay as well. I wonder whatever happened to that digital pay system pushed by WalMart that was supposed to be on the level of ApplePay? There was a lot of chatter about it around the time of the release of ApplePay, but I haven't seen much about it since. It was some weird transaction process, open the app, present QR code, do something else on app, re-present QR code or something…

It was probably based on their membership in the Merchant Customer Exchange (MCX), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Customer_Exchange

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#242

Post by wcoenen »

A lot of problems would go away if all merchants (voluntarily or by law) explicitly charged their payment costs to the customer. Both for card and cash transactions, because cash handling isn't free either.

The customers using high reward cards would then soon discover that they are just paying for those rewards themselves, and the free market would quickly push everyone to the most efficient payment systems.

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#243

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mehrdadn wrote: post #224
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one example. I gave a counterexample. Usually, branding matches to card type. But not always. The question was can they be charged differently, and the answer is yes.

This is a interesting discussion -- and I'm seeing a subtle point here that's getting lost. If I understand your merger example correctly, you're suggesting that a card that is now marketed as Visa Rewards Traditional, for example, may still truly be a Visa Rewards Signature card underneath from before the merger (or whatever the prior classification was). However, what I find important here is that the card still is…

This is an object versus pointer debate.

A card is “really” a collection of contracts. A bunch of cards are collectively referred to as a “card type,” for merchant billing purposes. It’s nice when that aligns with the card’s marketing, but nothing requires it. Each payment network has its own conventions, which have changed over the years, and are constantly interacting with hundreds of layers and parties. Nobody prioritises keeping brand and type name correlated.

Banks regularly change perks and rates, and when they do, they tend to renegotiate payment fees. Remember, there are like 300 fees. So in these renegotiations, some cards may end up one way and some may another. These are classified as whatever and life goes on. The “real” thing to the merchant is the mapping from card to type. The “real” thing to the bank is the fee flow. The “real” thing to the customer are the branding and perks.

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#244

Post by d4rti »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #104
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wal-Mart has had success with forcing debit transactions to withhold merchant fees.

They’re also trying to push Walmart Pay as well. At their scale, it’s worth it. Despite the pain, I still think Walmart should’ve acquired and rebranded a bank, and offered financial products. Would do wonders for the unbanked, while keeping their transaction fees down.

Tesco and Sainsbury's both have banks in the UK.

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#245

Post by pmontra »

goc_ wrote: post #220
randomsearch wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting quote from Musk: “saying you like moats is another way of saying you like oligopolies”. I like Musk’s focus on innovation, and I also thought this was interesting because it came from one of the PayPal+ group.

It's not a question of liking moats or not. Nobody has found any other routes to scale quickly. The moat is fundamental to producing the kind of scaling we see today.

But how many moats there could be in world (or in any given market) ? Furthermore which should ask on which side of the moat are we and if it's good for us to be there.

There was a post yesterday which fundamentally is about this issue https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17642551

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#246

Post by dodgemustang »

wcoenen wrote: post #242

A lot of problems would go away if all merchants (voluntarily or by law) explicitly charged their payment costs to the customer. Both for card and cash transactions, because cash handling isn't free either. The customers using high reward cards would then soon discover that they are just paying for those rewards themselves, and the free market would quickly push everyone to the most efficient payment systems.

Dogecoin it is then.

Edit: If you really believe the freemarket is the best to determine what is the preferred mode of exchange. Then decentralized currencies are inevitably going to win out, especially if they're equally accessable. (Meaning no need for extensive tech knowledge or expensive mining rigs).

A currency that has a built in UBI and virtually no transaction costs is going to be attractive to consumers. And merchants will eventually gravitate towards it more as they see it enables consumers to consume more.

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#247

Post by mehrdadn »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #243
mehrdadn wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a interesting discussion -- and I'm seeing a subtle point here that's getting lost. If I understand your merger example correctly, you're suggesting that a card that is now marketed as Visa Rewards Traditional, for example, may still truly be a Visa Rewards Signature card underneath from before the merger (or whatever the prior classification was). However, what I find important here is that the card still is…

This is an object versus pointer debate. A card is “really” a collection of contracts. A bunch of cards are collectively referred to as a “card type,” for merchant billing purposes. It’s nice when that aligns with the card’s marketing, but nothing requires it. Each payment network has its own conventions, which have changed over the years, and are constantly interacting with hundreds of layers and parties. Nobody pri…

> The “real” thing to the merchant is the mapping from card to type.

This is exactly what I'm trying to understand: how specific/granular the "card types" can be. Maybe another way to ask it is the following: is there a pre-set list of "card types" with pre-set merchant fees provided by Visa/MC/etc. that issuers must choose from (whether Rewards Traditional vs. Signature, or something else) and that merchants can expect, or do issuers get to come up with their own distinct "card types" that result in different fees for the merchant?

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#248

Post by maaark »

daemin wrote: post #222
bdowling wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The charge is to the merchant, not to the customer. In general, the price marked on the good factors in the credit card fees, because almost everyone uses credit cards. So, if a buyer uses cash or a debit card, he should always negotiate for a 1-2% discount. Edit: To clarify, some U.S. merchants do charge a "credit card fee" or enforce a minimum charge amount to all customers using credit cards for their purchases. I…

In Australia the government put in legislation to cap the maximum credit card surcharge that a merchant could charge the customer to the actual fee that they pay on the card. When I was there I remember things like $10 or $20 minimum and also anywhere up to 5-10% surcharge for paying with a card.

The UK did too. The cap is 0.

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#249

Post by ImaCake »

daemin wrote: post #222
bdowling wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The charge is to the merchant, not to the customer. In general, the price marked on the good factors in the credit card fees, because almost everyone uses credit cards. So, if a buyer uses cash or a debit card, he should always negotiate for a 1-2% discount. Edit: To clarify, some U.S. merchants do charge a "credit card fee" or enforce a minimum charge amount to all customers using credit cards for their purchases. I…

In Australia the government put in legislation to cap the maximum credit card surcharge that a merchant could charge the customer to the actual fee that they pay on the card. When I was there I remember things like $10 or $20 minimum and also anywhere up to 5-10% surcharge for paying with a card.

They basically banned the $10 minimum. It isn't all in favour of the CC companies though. They are limited in what they can charge vendors for each transaction, which is why credit card churning isn't worth as much money in Australia as the US.

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#250

Post by EliRivers »

daemin wrote: post #229
smileysteve wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy this because it discounts the high costs of cash controls. Cash has high costs that likely make electronic forms of payment competitive. You have - Employees skimming the till; - Theft insurance for a safe, the nightly amount in the safe - Managers balancing the cash registers with change/safe - Armored trucks picking up the money (2-3 men guarding the transfer) - Banks processing the money - Employee tim…

Little story: I actually saw one employee at a fast food joint brazenly dig into the till and take a 20 out and put it into his pocket right in front of me. He wasn't a cashier but just someone that assembles the food product.

I once got a call from a co-worker shortly after midnight saying that when she'd cashed up her till, she was twenty down, so then she cashed up my till again (even though I'd done it before leaving) and I also was twenty down.

Didn't hesitate; called the area manager and told him the facts and nothing more. Never saw her again. Don't skim from your co-worker's till.

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