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The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

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Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#241

Post by Bucephalus355 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #238
gshulegaard wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you are referring to. I was involved in a motorcycle accident in October of 2017 and I was treated by SFFD paramedics in an ambulance.

Why does the fire department respond to a medical emergency?

Often this is because many firefighters are also certified EMTs. So sometimes, it’s just easier to have the fire department respond.

That being said, I live in a rural state where this makes sense. I cannot imagine the crowded streets of SF are good for this.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#242

Post by loco5niner »

DannyBee wrote: post #224
coryfklein wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These ladders last decades so presumably most of the shop work is in maintaining existing ladders, not in pumping out lots of new ones. It would be a waste of time and money to kiln fire the wood for 6 months when you can just order it 1-2 years in advance and leave it in the corner to accomplish the same purpose.

"These ladders last decades" Then literally this entire process is a complete waste of time, because they will never stay at any moisture content over this time period.

I believe the article said the ladders were sealed with multiple coats.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#243

Post by mindcrime »

lisper wrote: post #209
mindcrime wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you didn't read the article. Did you read the comment you're replying to? I said very specifically "SF does have some good reasons for sticking with their wooden ladders". And note that I said "a somewhat significant factor" NOT "the only factor" or even "the biggest factor". In fact, I did read the article, and I see nothing that contradicts the suggestion that tradition is "a somewhat significant factor" in…

> Did you read the comment you're replying to? Yes. > I said "a somewhat significant factor" NOT "the only factor" or even "the biggest factor". That's true. But even "somewhat significant" isn't justified by the facts. > SF does have some good reasons for sticking with their wooden ladders And they have one overwhelming reason: aluminum is not an option because of the overhead muni lines. So it's possible that tradi…

And they have one overwhelming reason: aluminum is not an option because of the overhead muni lines. So it's possible that tradition has a role, but there's no evidence that it is even "somewhat" significant.

If you're operating under the assumptions that A. all the relevant information is in the article and B. everything in the article can be taken at face value, then I can see how you would arrive at that conclusion. So fair enough. I didn't mention it earlier, but I'm operating from a place of applying additional knowledge and perspective that comes from over a decade as a firefighter.

Anyway, I doubt we'll ever really know for sure. In either case, SFFD do a great job, so mad props to them regardless of what kind of ladders they use.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#244

Post by gsnedders »

VectorLock wrote: post #235
gsnedders wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do other countries with OHLE cope? AFAIK, most use metal ladders. Just rely on quickly getting the wires isolated?

I think when the electrical service wires have insulation it isn't as much of an issue as opposed to the electricity driven trollies needing bare conductors.

OHLE is specially overhead equipment like that used for trams, trolleybuses, etc. Most places I was thinking of don't have electrical supply wires overground.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#245

Post by VectorLock »

bluGill wrote: post #44
lisper wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one can't help but suspect that sheer tradition is a somewhat significant factor Only if you didn't read the article. "There's a city-specific reason why San Francisco has stuck with wood rather than swap over to metals, and the answer lies in looking up. The high-voltage cables and wires that guide the city's (oft-maligned) public transport system Muni, and trolley cars crisscross above nearly every street, mean t…

There are plenty of ladders on the market that are non-conductive. None of them are wood because wood is conductive. (though wood does have some interesting fire properties that probably make them better anyway)

How conductive? I'd expect dried wood would have a pretty high resistance.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#246

Post by coryfklein »

DannyBee wrote: post #224
coryfklein wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These ladders last decades so presumably most of the shop work is in maintaining existing ladders, not in pumping out lots of new ones. It would be a waste of time and money to kiln fire the wood for 6 months when you can just order it 1-2 years in advance and leave it in the corner to accomplish the same purpose.

"These ladders last decades" Then literally this entire process is a complete waste of time, because they will never stay at any moisture content over this time period.

The point is to bring them to the natural moisture content due to the average San Francisco humidity. Once they are there they will stay there because the average humidity is relatively constant.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#247

Post by ellard »

curun1r wrote: post #216
AdieuToLogic wrote: post #27

The Discovery Channel's "Dirty Jobs"[0] show made a segment involving the SFFD's ladder construction/maintenance crew. In it, they explained that wooden ladders are cheaper to maintain than aluminum ones and I think also discount fiberglass ladders as well. It's worth a watch if one is interested in this topic. 0 - http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/dirty-jobs/about-this-show...

LOL at SFFD giving any shits about costs. This is the same department that power grabbed emergency medical response away from dedicated paramedics in ambulances. Responding in full ladder trucks to take care of drunk homeless people...yeah, they do that, costing millions every year in added expenses and road repairs. But good for them for saving a few bucks on ladders, that must make a huge difference.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/us/san-francisco-firefigh...

You're not wrong, but it's more that they are in a position to help and the city doesn't seem to want to have another organization deal with the homeless. They're not exactly gunning for the role of taking care of the homeless.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#248

Post by thatfrenchguy »

chrisseaton wrote: post #238
gshulegaard wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you are referring to. I was involved in a motorcycle accident in October of 2017 and I was treated by SFFD paramedics in an ambulance.

Why does the fire department respond to a medical emergency?

They do in most countries actually. There's a lot of similarity in the skills you need.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#249

Post by PoachedSausage »

jerf wrote: post #163
sbov wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common phenomena, and I'm not sure if there's a general term for it. E.g. people prematurely stop taking antibiotics because they feel better, or people go off their meds because they feel fine, etc.

I'd say this is best described by the concepts from control theory. In this case it really reminds me of bang-bang control: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bang%E2%80%93bang_control and in particular, the failure state that it can result in when applied in the real world: "depending on the width of the hysteresis gap and inertia in the process, there will be an oscillating error signal around the desired set point valu…

It is really painful sometimes to navigate life and witness the complete lack of understanding of control systems shown by the designers of many essential pieces of basic infrastructure from roads and parking all the way up to the banking/financial system.

Another common lack of understanding that is particularly prevalent within middle management is the trade-off between efficiency and resilience, the application of this to the finacial system is discussed at length in [0].

[0]http://www.lietaer.com/images/Sapiens_text_final.pdf

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#250

Post by Gargoyle »

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #219
curun1r wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL at SFFD giving any shits about costs. This is the same department that power grabbed emergency medical response away from dedicated paramedics in ambulances. Responding in full ladder trucks to take care of drunk homeless people...yeah, they do that, costing millions every year in added expenses and road repairs. But good for them for saving a few bucks on ladders, that must make a huge difference.

Coming from NYC, it is somewhat surprising to see such anger directed at fire departments. Here, the FDNY seems universally loved.

The LAFD might be the most admired municipal organization in the city. They have a very difficult range of environments and handle them very well.
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