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China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

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Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#241

Post by yoavm »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #118
yoavm wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know many people in Gaza? Because I do and they complain much more about Hamas than they do about Israel. I'm far from agreeing with Israel's policies regarding Gaza, but the truth is it's far from being Gaza's biggest problem. Not to mention the often forgetten fact that Gaza has another border, with Egypt, which is closed, and Israel has nothing to do with it. A Gazan friend told me this very week actually t…

> Not to mention the often forgetten fact that Gaza has another border, with Egypt, which is closed, and Israel has nothing to do with it. Suppose a universe in which Israel didn't exist. Would Egypt have closed off its border with Gaza? Not a chance. That means it has everything to do with Israel. If you think Israel and its allies wouldn't respond with pressure on Egypt the moment it'd open up a border with Gaza, p…

* The Egyptian border is closed since the Egyptian army took control of the country. They hate Hamas more than anything. They have no love for Israel. Israel never asked them to close the border. What is your "not a chance" based on? Egypt blamed Hamas for terror attacks inside Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_positions_on_the...)

* My stories are anecdotal, but my work for the past year has almost 100% to do with Gaza and it's internals conflict. I wish I could say more but I can't, and by the way, I can't because it would put my Gazan friends in risk of being hurt by Hamas. I'm sure it doesn't represent the majority, but you have to remember what's possible to say and what's impossible to say in Gaza. It was about two years ago when thousands of youth in Gaza wanted to organize a protest against Hamas. They FB event went crazy. Hamas broadcasted a very simple slide on all TV channels saying that everyone who'll be out on the street in the time of the protest will be immediately shot. The whole thing was canceled. So yeah, the voices against Hamas are much harder to be heard, but they are there and I believe that it's not only my stories who show them, but everyone who'll you have an honest (and unfortunately, fully encrypted) conversation with will tell you the same.

* I never said Gazans like Israel. They hate it. They also hate America, the Palestinian Authorities, etc'. So what? My note was only that the Human Rights issues in Gaza have only so much to do with Israel.

* I agree that Israel helped bringing Hamas into power. That doesn't change the fact that Hamas are no less of oppressors towards their own people. They abuse them, they care nothing for their lives, they're a bunch of gangsters willing the destroy all of Gaza just so they'll stay in power. Yes, Israel has to do with it, and not a little. But Hamas was chosen democratically.

Again, I've led so many campaigns and protests against Israel's governments and policies over the past years. I'm so far from agreeing with them on anything. But I care for Gazans a lot, and since I started hearing them, I learned that their day-to-day problems are at 90% of the cases things like corruption, women rights, inability to gather, abuse, and internal Stasi-like issues.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#242

Post by skrause »

nomass wrote: post #178
pas wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of military spending, we should get our education and politics act together. We should be at least ready to pivot to self sufficiency. We depend on Putin's mercy for energy, because a lot of us skipped game theory in kindergarden apparently. Someone mentioned cell phones. Yes that'd be good, to have a full end to end electronics pipeline around here. And so on.

We have very little military spending. The ukraine invasion was a very successfull testrun for Putin. We in Europe we keep ourselve weak and defenseless. Why?

We're not defenseless. The Ukraine just isn't part of either the NATO or the EU and not really close to the rest of Europe. If Russia was about to invade part of Finland the reaction would be quite different.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#243

Post by oblio »

kazagistar wrote: post #235
oblio wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could argue that “totalitarianism” was the default government form for most of history. The problem is, the higher we go on the Maslow pyramid, the more likely it is for it to fail. You just can’t have a huge mass of creative, inventive people without them complaining about leadership (and wanting to improve it). And totalitarianism by definition has problems accepting criticism. The only way for totalitarianism…

Do we actually need creative inventive people? Maybe at some point we run low on truly innovative new ideas that are truly practical. Maybe we just start re-skinning the old ideas and selling them for no real benefit, and could do without the whole process. Maybe that's already in the process of happening.

Basic research needs those people. And in the end they win. That’s how we got the alphabet, iron working, etc.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#244

Post by oblio »

threatofrain wrote: post #233
oblio wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could argue that “totalitarianism” was the default government form for most of history. The problem is, the higher we go on the Maslow pyramid, the more likely it is for it to fail. You just can’t have a huge mass of creative, inventive people without them complaining about leadership (and wanting to improve it). And totalitarianism by definition has problems accepting criticism. The only way for totalitarianism…

It's one thing to invoke Abraham Maslow for aesthetic purposes during flowery discussion, but Maslow isn't followed much or at all by current researchers.

I can’t say I follow modern economics too closely, but does anyone really dispute that the need for food is a lower level one than the need for academic achievements, for example?

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#245

Post by throwaway9346 »

emptybits wrote: post #193

A thought experiment, from an ignorant Canadian to those Chinese who accept ethnic discrimination in national policy: Generation(s) of Han Chinese and Uighurs get together and start having children. An act of loving subversion, if you will. At what level of mixing does the dangerous Uighur contribution become safe to you? 50%? 25%? 12.5%? [Only somewhat tongue-in-cheek.]

It's not about race but rather their patriotism towards China.

The largest group of Muslims in China are the Hui Muslims (about 10 million of them). They are the descendants of the Muslims that were absorbed during conquests in the Tang and Ming Dynasty.

They eventually integrated and married other Han Chinese. They are still Muslim, but also identify as Chinese. There are also affirmative action programs for them, making it easier for them to into good colleges and government jobs.

They were also exempt from the 1-child policy.

They are how Asians are in the US, the "model minority."

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#246

Post by throwaway9346 »

adventured wrote: post #124
CapacitorSet wrote: post #26

The fact that this is done under the guise of antiterrorism ought to ring some bells to American readers.

The situations don't compare well, even though the US too often uses terrorism as a guise to pursue global political goals. Domestically there are 3.3 million Muslims in the US. There are ~50 detainees at Guantanamo Bay, with most of the former detainees having been released without charge. Some of them were charged as enemy combatants and or terrorists. And Guantanamo is widely considered a black mark on the US repu…

There are over 20 million Muslims in China and the vast majority also co-exist entirely peacefully with other Chinese.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#247

Post by throwaway9346 »

emptybits wrote: post #186
scotty79 wrote: post #116

What would be your advice to China about how should they treat Uighurs?

Treatment identical to Han Chinese would be a great start.

It would definitely ease how the Han Chinese feel about Uighurs being ungrateful.

For those that don't know, China as affirmative action policies for Uighurs and other minorities. They were exempt from the 1-child policy, they get additional social welfare, and have an easier time getting to college and government jobs.

So with all these perks, most Han Chinese see them as being ungrateful when they commit or support terrorist acts, like the Kunming massacre in 2014 or suicide bombing police stations.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#248

Post by assblaster »

I have first hand experience in Xinjiang a decade ago. I can only imagine it's getting worse.

What I remember most was:

1) nearly hourly MMS messages to my flip phone from unknown numbers with an unknown attachment. Since my phone was bought outside China, the MMS attachment didn't automatically open the likely spyware.

2) Being followed and monitored by plainclothes policemen

3) Having my hotel room searched while I was away. Having police come to my hotel room to interrogate me but lacking access because I had the only key to the room (very very cheap hotel).

4) Armed convoys of Chinese army soldiers constantly going up and down major streets.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#249

Post by igivanov »

kinsomo wrote: post #230
boomboomsubban wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof? Libya has currently been broken into four or more warring states, each controlling some part of Libya. >Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". By providing the various sides with arms and support. Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatic…

>> Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". > Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. I think that's profoundly ignorant and belies lazy thinking, especially in relation to Syria. The precise ca…

>The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime

https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T...

I think your version is ~ between Disney and high school.

read your [5] carefully again (I am sure you haven't), and note the nice sidebar on the right "Covert United States involvement in regime change", it's not there by accident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#250

Post by emptybits »

throwaway9346 wrote: post #245
emptybits wrote: post #193

A thought experiment, from an ignorant Canadian to those Chinese who accept ethnic discrimination in national policy: Generation(s) of Han Chinese and Uighurs get together and start having children. An act of loving subversion, if you will. At what level of mixing does the dangerous Uighur contribution become safe to you? 50%? 25%? 12.5%? [Only somewhat tongue-in-cheek.]

It's not about race but rather their patriotism towards China. The largest group of Muslims in China are the Hui Muslims (about 10 million of them). They are the descendants of the Muslims that were absorbed during conquests in the Tang and Ming Dynasty. They eventually integrated and married other Han Chinese. They are still Muslim, but also identify as Chinese. There are also affirmative action programs for them, m…

> It's not about race but rather their patriotism towards China.

Please explain, then, why race is a category used to reduce a person's numeric "trustworthiness score" in China. If one is ethnically Uighur instead of Han or if one has received religious education then one is deemed by the government as "less trustworthy" -- not because of behaviour or evidence of a crime but simply because of ethnicity.[1][2][3]

Since this score is used to determine whether freedoms are restricted (e.g. travel, communication, and forced "re-education"), it is racism.

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/thousands-chin...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/opinion/china-re-educatio...

[3] (TFA) https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turn...

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