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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#241

Post by simias »

snappyTertle wrote: post #83

I don't get why people think paying more taxes is "moral". There are a lot of things the government spends on that I don't agree with...and I'm sure I'm not alone on this.

That's what it's like being in a democracy and living in a society. Maybe you'd prefer to live in an anarcho-libertarian state but many people seem to enjoy benefits of a modern democratic society with all its safety nets.

There are ways to work around that to a certain extent though, for instance you can donate to nonprofits for causes you care for and get a tax rebate. That effectively means that you decide where that share of the taxes gets invested personally.

But beyond that there's not much you can do, you'll never have a government you 100% agree with on all subjects, at some point you have to accept to compromise and vote for the representatives that best represent your viewpoint and interests. Or leave I guess.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#242

Post by Maarten88 »

dontreact wrote: post #171
dontreact wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one reason this is tricky because it's not easy to define where an online sale is happening.

Another reason would be that it could be argued that this unfair if they are selling products with very different margins in different countries.

That is what they argue now, they argue their margin in EU is almost zero. But because they transfer costs internally in any way they like (abusing the IP laws that they need to do business in the first place), they can make the profit appear in any country they want.

If countries want to stop missing out on these taxes, I think they should just stop accepting the whole argument. If companies really accept lower margins in some country, they can also afford to pay a bit more taxes.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#243

Post by Gustomaximus »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

I feel the other solutions is obvious in that we need to align tax law to meet the global mobility of money, in the same way we aligned trading laws. Something like;

1) A group like the WTO/G12 get together and agree to minimum tax rate for any corporate/country/individual that wants to do business and or have access to these economies/nations. Any company/individual that earns income in lower tax rate countries is fine to do so but must tax equalise to the minimum or they can not do business or visit these countries.

2) Citizens of the above group of tax aligned countries must declare overseas assets and incomes and equalise tax payments if below a set minimum. Should undeclared assets/income be found the assets are forfeit and the person gets 1 year jail per $1mil. And anyone who provide information to create asset forfeit or additional tax owned gets 25% of that.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#244

Post by nikcub »

_acme wrote: post #144
mtrn wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing devils advocate here: > What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. How about a startup providing "tax-optimization" for the masses? Keep a cut of the money saved: win-win. Or win-win-lose, if you include the state.

How would this possibly work? Just throwing out the word 'startup' doesn't solve anything. The only way to reasonably take this comment seriously is as subtle sarcasm.

Similar services exist. If you're a foreign short-term contractor in the UK it's common to use a services company to setup a company in Jersey for you, setup the bank account and then run payroll for you.

I could see something like Stripe Atlas but in an offshore jurisdiction - they set you up with a company, bank account and merchant account which you can then process international credit card transactions out of (ie. transactions that originate from countries other than the one you're based in)

The other application is for entrepreneurs in developing nations where there are regular occurrences of businesses being shaken down (or outright taken over) by corrupt officials. Using local banks can often tip off the wrong type of people as to who is wealthy enough to go after

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#245

Post by tazard »

repomies691 wrote: post #219
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

So... Basically Apple is increasing the suffering by creating all those laptops and iphones? That is very difficult for me to grasp. Apple creates computers and phones which make peoples lives a lot better, and people are willing to pay for those. Why is the suffering increasing? I guess world would be a better place if apple would pay more taxes, but I'm pretty sure that world would be worse place without Apple, whe…

Apple isn't increasing suffering by creating laptops. They are increasing suffering by not paying taxes. It is possible to enrich lives of some people, and increase suffering if others at the same time.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#246

Post by Joe-Z »

repomies691 wrote: post #219
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

So... Basically Apple is increasing the suffering by creating all those laptops and iphones? That is very difficult for me to grasp. Apple creates computers and phones which make peoples lives a lot better, and people are willing to pay for those. Why is the suffering increasing? I guess world would be a better place if apple would pay more taxes, but I'm pretty sure that world would be worse place without Apple, whe…

Wow, "Let them eat cake" is the first thing that sprang into my mind upon reading your comment. Yes, having good phones and laptops surely is something great.

But we're talking here about a vast and growing gap between the rich and the poor, and if you're slaving away in your shit-town on your minimum wage job you don't give a damn about how awesome your life is now thanks to the iPhone.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#247

Post by fgjjgutjvnu »

How does it even work - how can they sell stuff for Billions in Germany and pay only 25 Millions in taxes?

I think if the German government is unhappy about that, they should change their tax laws.

There is of course also competition among countries to attract top companies. So just assuming all you'd have to do is tax some company and you'd rake in the billions is foolish.

As for "democratic duty to pay taxes" - meh. I didn't vote for my government, and given the choice (and money), I'd probably prefer to give my money to other charities and projects than the government would. My government would use the money to fund gender studies, botched government projects that waste billions, and so on.

In Germany it is actually legal and encouraged to pay as little taxes as possible (looking for "loopholes", as left wing media would call it).

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#248

Post by BoiledCabbage »

repomies691 wrote: post #219
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

So... Basically Apple is increasing the suffering by creating all those laptops and iphones? That is very difficult for me to grasp. Apple creates computers and phones which make peoples lives a lot better, and people are willing to pay for those. Why is the suffering increasing? I guess world would be a better place if apple would pay more taxes, but I'm pretty sure that world would be worse place without Apple, whe…

Hmm, Apple should probably stop paying any wages to any factory workers and force them to sleep in the factory and work 18hrs a day. As long as they keep making those nice phones and laptops...

I mean I guess it would be better if they didn't do that, but then again have you seen the next competetors laptop? The world would be a worse place if we had to use that.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#249

Post by Maarten88 »

dontreact wrote: post #126
Maarten88 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if governments of large countries such as Germany (or the whole EU) would base the corporation tax simply on the total profit, divided by the revenue share of the country? For large public multinational corporations it is very easy to approximate how much they should pay in any country, when you just wouldn't accept the transfer pricing tricks that they use to move the profits around.

I think one reason this is tricky because it's not easy to define where an online sale is happening.

That is a solved problem. Online sales also pay VAT somewhere already.
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