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More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

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Re: More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

#241
post #69
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should this be the case? They offer a service with hundreds of competing options (other schools), so it's hard to argue they're not offering market rate.

Do they though? Do public universities really have competition? Maryland has College Park and not much else. All the other public schools are much much smaller, and generally lower quality.

This isn't the 1850s, UMD essentially competes with at least the other east coast public schools. So you have Penn State and UVA, as well as UD, Va Tech, GA Tech, UNC, etc.

Add to that the negligible degree to which attending "the best school" effects your outcomes (spoiler: virtually not at all. Being in the top 25% at your school far outweighs how good your school is) and you'll realize that they compete heavily. This totally leaves out all the private schools with which they compete in the DC area.

Re: More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

#242
post #184
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are more depressing statistics: https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/funding-d... tl;dr: States have been cutting back on funding public education even as it's gotten much more expensive every year.

This. States slashed higher education spending during the recession, and it's not coming back. At the same time, federal grant money got tighter. Student tuition is literally the only dial left that can be moved.

There are at a minimum two dials they can turn, the other being lowering costs. Less palatial dorms, cheaper food, cheaper coaches, lower faculty salaries to name a few. They could do these things, it's just that higher prices is easier to get past their faculty committees.

Re: More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

#243
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we would have educated our citizenry and let millions of people learn about the world and the expanses of human knowledge instead of just the rich for nothing, since those citizens wouldn't be able to generate extra wealth for their bosses. What a nightmare.

If your very expensive proposal doesn't end up in someone generating additional wealth that can be taxed or donated or given in loans and so on, how are you going to fund your utopia?

It is not very expensive. It is not a utopia, it is a tiny but meaningful increase in quality of life for the vast majority of citizens and society as a whole. And your question is fundamentally ideologically flawed: were you concern trolling about how we were going to fund the bombs we dropped on weddings last year? How did we fund the Saudi Arabian genocide in Yemen? What taxes did we raise to give them this money?

Corporate taxes basically don't exist in the US. Taxes on the wealthy barely exist compared to the most productive period in US history, when they were 94%. Your question reveals more about its asker than the subject. The whole point of having a country is so that the resources we generate together can be used to help the country, not so that a tiny wealthy oligarchy can siphon off all our resources and leave us to die, then when we ask to live, say "how will you pay for it?" [because I, after stealing your money, obviously won't give any of it back to you]

Re: More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

#244
post #228

I firmly believe that university is way, way overpriced in a world of free, high quality MOOCs. It just makes zero economic sense and I believe the market will correct this sooner or later. Think about how utterly inefficient it all is: you have hundreds of professors around the world, each mechanically teaching the same subject semester after semester to new students (I know, they do a bit more than that). Some will…

Christ, I've been struggling with this all month. I finished college in 2014, worked in industry for three years, then came back to school for a PhD. I am now completely shocked that these undergrads are paying $60k/year to come here to listen to the same cookie-cutter lectures that are being given at thousands of other institutions across the country. I almost feel embarrassed for the professors as well, having to a…

Yep, agreed. It's not really that universities are bad, just that they're outrageously overpriced and inefficient. And from my personal experience, most professors don't seem that passionate about educating (many of them rightfully think their time would be better spent elsewhere). I think the two missing pieces for university alternatives to pick up steam are industry acceptance and a more curriculum based format (vs single courses).

Re: More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

#245
post #108

I hate sounding both old and weird but I cannot shake the feeling that much of the claims of economic health and growth in the US is... if not fake (I’m not totally nuts) but not accurate. My most charitable interpretation if I’m right is that we’re using the wrong metrics (possibly intentionally) that give a distorted view of the economy. But I keep hearing employment is great, productivity is great, stock market is…

Everyone young is rushing to the cities in order to make any sort of decent living but finds that housing costs are so high it doesn’t really matter much. Those staying in rural America can maybe afford housing but they have no stability.

The stability factor is really the key - I know of few people that expect to be in the same job in 5 years, and everyone stretching for housing to try to get some longer term stability are on a knifes edge. That’s at least my perspective from where I’m standing.

Re: More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

#246
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. States slashed higher education spending during the recession, and it's not coming back. At the same time, federal grant money got tighter. Student tuition is literally the only dial left that can be moved.

There are at a minimum two dials they can turn, the other being lowering costs. Less palatial dorms, cheaper food, cheaper coaches, lower faculty salaries to name a few. They could do these things, it's just that higher prices is easier to get past their faculty committees.

1. You'd be surprised at how vocal faculty committees can be about opposing raising tuition. Either because they care about their students and their futures, or more mercenarily, because it means supporting graduate students eats up more of their grant funding when tuition goes up.

2. We've already lowered faculty salaries - why do you think so much is done now by adjuncts that are pretty universally regarded as underpaid?

3. Student amenities have been shown not actually to be all that significant a contributor to rising costs, especially compared to the slashed state and federal budgets to support universities.

Many universities have already done a great deal to lower costs - putting aside needed infrastructure investments, not replacing both staff and faculty when they retire, the aforementioned reliance on adjuncts, and in some cases cutting or merging whole departments.

Re: More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

#247
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hedonic adjustment" is meant to control for the 'quality' of some (limited) products sampled in the CPI such as rent, computers and automobiles. 'quality-adjusted' means that they run a standard linear regression across the features of sampled items to normalize the variation in the sample. For example, the sampled rent of apartments would be modeled as (in the simplest example I can think of) : y = rent, b = slope,…

I'm not claiming a conspiracy, its more a confederacy of dunces staffed by people who have a vested interest in reaching conclusions that affirm the wishes of their bosses. Any such system that includes a bunch of very complex algorithms filled with uncertain data and arbitrary variables that can be tweaked by the people crunching the numbers you are going to come out with a garbage result. The FED is literally engag…

The result doesn't appear to be garbage. The BLS's CPI data is very close to MIT's BPP.

Re: More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

#248
post #108

I hate sounding both old and weird but I cannot shake the feeling that much of the claims of economic health and growth in the US is... if not fake (I’m not totally nuts) but not accurate. My most charitable interpretation if I’m right is that we’re using the wrong metrics (possibly intentionally) that give a distorted view of the economy. But I keep hearing employment is great, productivity is great, stock market is…

Define people?

You can look up the statistics but the wealthy top 5% have been doing very VERY well these last 30 years and everything continues to be great.

People aren't wrong when they say how amazing it is that Trump managed to bankrupt himself.

Re: More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there is no conspiracy; that would presume far more competency than they have hired for. This seems to be the case almost universally, but I guess it's easier to jump to the 'malice' conclusion than to attribute it to lack of competency. Perhaps more succinctly: if you think the world is out to get you, then it is.

> But there is no conspiracy People want structure and simplicity in the world. They want to believe someone is in control, even if that someone is harming them.

People assume structure and simplicity.

Therefore if something is wrong, someone is responsible.

Re: More Americans Are Falling Behind on Student Loans, and Nobody Quite Knows Why

#250
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the real problem is that we've developed this caste system over the last 50 years where people who don't get college degrees are excluded from careers that can sustain a middle class lifestyle. What if free college just moves the goal post and in a couple more decades nearly everyone has a Master's degree and you need a PhD to earn a decent living? What happens if the most talented segment of our work force end…

That's exactly what's happened and what will happen - setting goalposts and then moving them. In Europe, specifically Germany and France, it's common for people to go for a Bachelor's and Master's back-to-back since there aren't any student loans to worry about. While the lack of student debt from studying so much sounds all nice, the reality is you get a bunch of 26-28 year olds graduating with Master's degrees and…

Your view, accurately portrays the deeply problematic issue that is inherently intertwined with education - namely real life.

Human beings are not studying machines.

Fail a course, and the response is not "re-booting, preparing trial N+1", the response is usually discouragement.

With free courses, good material, always on, and self selected motivated students - MOOCs were supposed to change the way we studied.

They had % completion rates in the single digits.

---

In every education system, there will be an issue.

The american system did very well - as long as there were jobs for high school students.

The fact is that most people are not cut out for college.

AS your (or any) society, starts forcing more and more people into higher education, because it becomes an unoffical pre-req for employment, you end up with many third order problems.

Firstly - testing.

In a class of 5 students, a teacher can test a students knowledge with detail.

With a class of 50 students, a teacher who has to grade submissions cannot afford the time to grade all of them.

This results in a drive for uniformity of answers - the removal of subjective answers from students, in favor of multiple choice.

The other way to enforce uniformity is to have a set of acceptable answers, so any deviation from it can just be identified and removed.

Since more students are now entering higher ed because its a pre-req for a job, they don't care about the subject. They care about the cert.

That means they will cheat, or memmorize the answers, and get on their merry way. Not everyone understand the humor in chemicals, or math. Nor do they care.

This is a process - and once started it grates at the old education system, till all of its higher purpose is eroded, and it streamlines itself to become a certification system. Buy your degree, or memmorize your way to do it.

This brings us to the next problem - not enough work even for degree holders.

The creation of more degree holders doesn't resolve the inherent jobs problem.

It just creates more supply, which drives certificate inflation, and wage stagnation.

Higher degrees are meant to indicate a level of mastery and capability on a topic. After a few cycles of degradataion, it just means that the end product is someone with the capability of passing an exam. Not necessarily that they can create new and novel works in their field.

And all the while, life goes on. These students are usually young human beings, who have varying levels of motivation, maturity and experience - they will go on holidays, take breaks, fail, succeed gloriously, do stupid things and so on.

TLDR: What you have described are epi-phenomena. The issue is jobs. The input cost of production from blue collar labor has been going down over years.

Unless there is meaningful work, for people who were never meant to be ... data scientists, or comp sci engineers - you will always have a problem.

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