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Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

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Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#241

Post by CanadianChester »

kannanvijayan wrote: post #168
thanksgiving wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lastly, crash reports are sort of a boolean filter - you only get the people that crash. The things I'd like to know to help in my development are things like "what is the histogram of max GC pause times on docs.google.com". Getting that info requires a good random sampling of the population, not just those who exhibit problems. PLEASE do not go down this road. Look where "optimizing" video card drivers has led the…

This is getting off-topic, but it's interesting. I think I have the exact opposite take on things from you :) A program written by a developer and used by a user is a relationship between that developer and the user. I just work on the platform that allows that relationship to exist. I feel it's overstepping our boundaries as platform providers to say "we're not going to make this platform faster for you because we t…

Why not think about the program you are working on as a program that is built to support the open standards that enable people to communicate and concentrate on performance within these standards? If someone wrote a bad performing non standard compliant code the program should throw an error.

Making bad code run faster is overstepping the boundaries.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#242

Post by gbuk2013 »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #236
gbuk2013 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we at least stop with the FUD please? Can we please stop with using the word FUD for things that are not? The very idea of accepting DRM as a possibility in the browser was a slap in the face to those who believe in internet freedom. > Like what? Pocket is fully owned by Mozilla. Check your facts: it was added to FF 1.5 years before Mozilla bought it. It was an example of them just not giving a shit and adding…

So freedom is not having the choice to use DRM?

I don't buy that argument, sorry. Because it requires something as anti-freedom as DRM to exist in the first place.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#243

Post by Ajedi32 »

joosters wrote: post #227
Ajedi32 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's true of _any_ new feature that gets added to Firefox. Anytime you change code, there's a chance you could be creating a new vulnerability that compromises users' privacy or security in some way. If, as some commenters here [have suggested][1], this telemetry would help improve Firefox by significantly reducing the amount of time it takes Mozilla to fix bugs and performance issues in the browser, what makes…

It's obviously far, far more likely in code that is designed to send my browsing habits to a 3rd party (in whatever encoding). Do you not see this, or are you just trying to extend out these arguments to some ridiculous extreme for the sake of it?

I don't know what level of risk this implementation carries with it. Probably more than a performance fix to the JavaScript interpreter, yes, but is it really a significant enough risk to make this feature not worth implementing? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't; I honestly don't know.

You just seemed to be arguing that _any_ amount of risk would be too much, which in my view is ridiculous since, as I said, all new features carry with them some amount of risk.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#244

Post by wongarsu »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #134
codefined wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't send the correct source IP address, with simple statistics gathering like this I hardly expect they require a response. It would mean there would be no personal data whatsoever.

This isnt how tcp/ip works

With udp/ip it would work, if none of the routers on the way to the destination filters spoofed IPs.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#245

Post by dannysu »

kannanvijayan wrote: post #185
dannysu wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the choice between opt-in vs opt-out of automatic behavior? If Mozilla wants perf data, collect it and then prompt the user "crash reporting" style. I would totally opt-in to prompts. Give it a threshold and ask, "This page seems to frequently perform less well on your computer, would you like to send us a report?"

Random sampling, basically. The value of random sampling is hard to overstate - it gives you a real picture of what's going on. A non-random sampling gives you a picture, but you have no way of confirming that the picture is a reflection of reality. Random sampling and privacy run into conflicts not just in the browser space, but everywhere else. For example, recently the Canadian government went through a period whe…

That make sense for top sites and Flash.

But for things like perf and regression? Really?

You might miss out on issues if users don't submit, but each submission is an indication of problem (because it's Firefox that decides a problem is bad enough). And you can still prioritize based on how common that problem is.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#246

Post by tjoff »

moosingin3space wrote: post #172
tjoff wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you guys just won't grasp is that: 1. You will absolutely obliterate any trust you have with actions like this. This is important. Because if you continue to ignore this and you will have tons of data but you will be absolutely clueless as to why your product and brand are completely abandoned. 2. This data isn't worth that much to begin with. Here is a crazy idea, try to make a better browser instead.

This data will be used in the pursuit of #2. As it turns out, a lack of understanding of what users are doing with their browsers is an obstacle to making a better browser. Performance issues in complex systems often only show up in production, and that's what Mozilla is trying to collect this data to fix.

As it turns out, people use firefox to display web pages.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#247

Post by tormeh »

joosters wrote: post #227
Ajedi32 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's true of _any_ new feature that gets added to Firefox. Anytime you change code, there's a chance you could be creating a new vulnerability that compromises users' privacy or security in some way. If, as some commenters here [have suggested][1], this telemetry would help improve Firefox by significantly reducing the amount of time it takes Mozilla to fix bugs and performance issues in the browser, what makes…

It's obviously far, far more likely in code that is designed to send my browsing habits to a 3rd party (in whatever encoding). Do you not see this, or are you just trying to extend out these arguments to some ridiculous extreme for the sake of it?

Well, the alternative is not a Firefox without telemetry, it's Chrome. If Firefox can't do what it needs to do to stay relevant it's going to die. Developers are already treating Firefox as a second class browser, so this is not an abstract threat.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#248

Post by kannanvijayan »

CanadianChester wrote: post #234
kannanvijayan wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Random sampling, basically. The value of random sampling is hard to overstate - it gives you a real picture of what's going on. A non-random sampling gives you a picture, but you have no way of confirming that the picture is a reflection of reality. Random sampling and privacy run into conflicts not just in the browser space, but everywhere else. For example, recently the Canadian government went through a period whe…

I've used Netscape then switched to Firefox when Netscape became way too bloated, then enjoyed years and years of Firefox getting better, supporting new JS and HTML5 features all WITHOUT telemetry and with the Crash Reporting window where I can see the data that is being submitted and submit it if I want to submit it. What have changed so much in last 5 years or so that now you have to get all this data? What is wron…

> What have changed so much in last 5 years or so that now you have to get all this data?

To be honest, a lot. Once again, this is my personal take on the matter, not Mozilla's view.

First off, browsers were a LOT simpler back then. The sophistication and complexity in a browser has grown significantly in the last decade or so.

Secondly, browsers have matured. Remember that this software category has only been around for 20 years or so. Compared to the code quality in browsers today, browsers of 10 years ago were crude and simple. As a software category matures, the low-hanging fruit dry up, so it's harder and harder to improve your product.

Lastly, competition. Firefox has the luxury of being released when the biggest competitor (Microsoft) wasn't putting real effort into its browser product. Google will not make that same mistake with Chrome.

Basically, the information we needed back then was less, because the problems were much more obvious, because the whole industry was still pretty young. Now browsers are much more mature, the ecosystem is much more complex, has a much wider user base, and the problems are becoming harder and harder to pin down.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#249

Post by joegosse »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #192
acdha wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any submission of data requires the transmission of an IP address, which is personal data and necessitates appropriate protection. Do you have a citation for that broad assertion? My understanding is that this is highly variable across legal jurisdictions and even in Europe, which typically leads the way in privacy, it's not that simple. See e.g. https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-... discu…

Within the new European GDPR framework, IP addresses are to be considered as personally identifiable information, so the concern is warranted. What's decisive when characterizing an information as identifiable or not is not the fact of being actually able to perform the de-anonymization of the information (e.g. via the ISP in case of an IP address), but the mere possibility of it. Legally though Firefox would be allo…

>Within the new European GDPR framework, IP addresses are to be considered as personally identifiable information,...

My understanding is that many of these details are yet to be settled with GDPR. The case referenced above was not interpreted under GDPR, which has yet to take effect. The definitions of personally identifiable data data rather vague, and precedent has not been set. A quick search showed conflicting opinions, but one perspective to consider is quoted below:

> In addition, businesses should note that Recital 26 to the recently adopted EU General Data Protection Regulation ("GDPR") states that the test for whether a person is "identifiable" (considered in detail above) depends upon "all the means reasonably likely to be used" to identify that person. The CJEU in Breyer did not directly consider the issue of likelihood of identification. If the BRD was not reasonably likely attempt to identify Mr Breyer from his IP address, this could potentially give rise to a different analysis under the GDPR. Consequently, it may be necessary for the CJEU to revisit this issue after enforcement of the GDPR begins on 25 May 2018.

This is a few years old, so if you know of some new decision or regulation that clarifies it would be great to know!

https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-...

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#250

Post by kannanvijayan »

keithpeter wrote: post #186
kannanvijayan wrote: post #71

I can do a quick summary of what's being proposed and why. I work in the JS team at Mozilla and deal directly with the problems caused by insufficient data. Please note that I'm speaking for myself here, and not on behalf of Mozilla as a whole. Tracking down regressions, crashes, and perf issues without good telemetry about how often it's happening and in what context. Issues that might have otherwise taken a few day…

"This is a difficult compromise to make" Then don't make the compromise. As others have expressed here the reason few people opt in to data collection may be because they have chosen to use a Web browser that does not mandate the collection of data. I'm assuming there will always be an opt out which I shall add to my list of things I have to do when installing Firefox.

> I'm assuming there will always be an opt out which I shall add to my list of things I have to do when installing Firefox.

There will be. Sorry for the hassle :(

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