Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could you explain why this post is disapearing from the frontpage as fast as it is? Even though it has the most votes in very little time. (see my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15011458 )
Users are flagging it heavily, as they have been flagging most opinion pieces that have appeared during this tidal wave. People who feel strongly one way or the other typically want to see the articles they agree with stay on the front page and the ones they disagree with get flagged. But from a systemic point of view, it isn't in HN's interest to have the front page dominated by repetitive arguments (and certainly n…
I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity
241–250 of 449 posts
Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not in itself. I'll even sometimes step up myself and at some point managed to get my boss to hire the girl who cleaned our offices since she was qualified only hadn't been considered since she was Polish. The insistence on punishment (firing, public shaming) for minor offences (wrongthink) withouth due process is worrying though.
I'm going to push back on the critique of shaming. It's literally the only consequence groups without any (economic/political) power have. It bears no force of law. It creates no consequence directly except for a little discomfort on the part of the recipient. Tell historically disadvantaged communities--the ones with decades or centuries of societal biases working against them--they can't shame people they think are…
The only way shaming hurts me is if the group doing the shaming is powerful among people I care about. Thus shaming is an expression of power, and a use of social force which must come from groups which have power.
Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
One aspect I haven't read much about are the incentives that the big tech companies are offering women candidates. You mention wage gaps but if the pool of qualified engineers is mostly men and Google (and other tech companies) want to hire women, it seems that salaries for women should be far, far higher than it is for men. The fact that they are close to equal might be part of the problem.
Openly offering different salaries based on gender is incredibly illegal.
Would a US court disallow this? It doesn't seem to violate the spirit of affirmative action, or the letter of equality laws.
Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity
#244Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was having a conversation about this yesterday with my girlfriend. What minorities need protection and rebalancing? We rarely talking about supporting the Jewish, for example, or Mexicans, or gays representation in engineering. What is the philosohpy at play here? And what if someday women became the majority, would you then fight to bring men back up to parity? She didn't have answers, which to me just made me won…
Diversity is intersectional and people who actually fight for diversity absolutely talk about and work so that Mexicans, Asians, latinos, the disabled, gay people, trans people, etc, etc are given equal opportunities and treatment in the workplace. There are literally thousands of organizations in just the US advocating for workplace diversity for pretty much any and every minority you can imagine. I suspect the prob…
Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
You might be right about the work load/work type on average/median/most cases? but I still think there is a difference in social status for the fields/titles. To go slightly off topic, can you speculate as to why is there more gender parity in those fields that are harder to get into (in terms of specific schooling) in the first place?
That's the entire question we're addressing in these threads. It is weird that women excel in: * the rest of STEM, * the law, * medicine, * pretty much all the rest of the professions (accounting, actuary, &c) ... despite the fact that many of those fields are, both intellectually and from the amount of work product expected, more challenging than computer science. Add to that the fact that most software jobs are far…
- the rest of STEM,
- the law,
- medicine,
- pretty much all the rest of the professions (accounting, actuary, &c)
... despite the fact that many of those fields are, both intellectually and from the amount of work product expected, more challenging than computer science.
Agree, this is reason for concern.
It is difficult to come up with an explanation for the 82/18 split in this industry that doesn't primarily include an implied preference on behalf of industry incumbents to avoid working with women.
Here's were we disagree.
I think there are lots of things to be done but if this was true then there should be a massive opportunity for whatever company moved first and hired all those qualified candidates that others shun.
Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity
#246Earlier quoted context omitted.
You might be right about the work load/work type on average/median/most cases? but I still think there is a difference in social status for the fields/titles. To go slightly off topic, can you speculate as to why is there more gender parity in those fields that are harder to get into (in terms of specific schooling) in the first place?
That's the entire question we're addressing in these threads. It is weird that women excel in: * the rest of STEM, * the law, * medicine, * pretty much all the rest of the professions (accounting, actuary, &c) ... despite the fact that many of those fields are, both intellectually and from the amount of work product expected, more challenging than computer science. Add to that the fact that most software jobs are far…
I don't think « preference on behalf of industry incumbents to avoid working with women » does that.
Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity
#247Some of the reasoning in this post is very weak. It's not very long, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. My daughter is also more interested in art than my son (who is more interested in video games). Both would make exceptional programmers, and both have a latent interest. Both are setting a course for STEM careers, but, like all 18 and 16 year…
>, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. Fascinating how different readers take away different salient points. For me, her main buildup was hiring women to meet a "diversity goal" resulted in pressures to hire some women who couldn't do the work . This creates a perverse feedback loop that unfairly taints future women candidates who could do the wo…
Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity
#248Everyone seems to agree that only the best should be hired. But may I ask isn't that a form of discrimination as well?. Being the best in an intelectual activity such as programming is highly corelated with the level of intelligence of an individual. No matter how hard you try if your IQ is below 80 you will never enter in Google. I even dare to say that even if you are in the normal range of intelligene your chances…
Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity
#249" In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech. " Precisely. This goes directly to the core of the issue and what I had brought up on the thread recently about the Google employee who got fired. Specifically, if companies were truly interested in fairness, the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions.…
> Overall, though, I thought her piece was well written and she seems to get at the real issue and even has a possible solution that doesn't involve just hiring women for purposes of optics only - fighting the battle far earlier and getting girls interested young so that they choose to enter these fields at a higher rate than they currently are doing. That is exactly what Google's diversity programs (the ones that Ja…
Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity
#250" In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech. " Precisely. This goes directly to the core of the issue and what I had brought up on the thread recently about the Google employee who got fired. Specifically, if companies were truly interested in fairness, the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions.…
I don't have any problem with people having arbitrary standards which guide their hiring process. They could be hiring the worst candidates, and I don't care, it's their business, may be they want to do charity or whatever.
The problem I have is with the "have to" hire such and such, and when they start painting all of that bs as being some sort of scientific thing where if you don't follow suit not only doing what they say, but also agreeing with them, you are the scum of the earth.
The statistics probably are sound, but the conclusions drawn from them are another matter. Anyone that have been exposed to statistics to some degree know that statistics fallacies abound, people that inject their own prejudices to explain out the numbers also exist, and that analysing things with lots of variables is not easy.
For example, they claim "it's just fair" if they hired as much women as women graduate in IT related areas, and otherwise it means people hiring are biased against women. Well, that's just non-sense. What if women perform actually worse? If not so, what if most women don't want to work at Google, I've heard lot of "interesting" stories that don't make me that amused if that was the case. What if women want to work in other areas that aren't as prominent in Google and go to other places instead?
As I said, saying it's just bias is just a premisse disguissed as conclusion. Just shows the bias of the people coming to those conclusions.