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My own private basic income

opendemocracy.net

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Re: My own private basic income

#241

Post by wturner »

ethereumnomad wrote: post #235
wturner wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@tqi So when you get down to the numbers and the prevalent value assumptions we all have, Oprah Winfrey (one person) provides more value to the country than 2/3's of the nations garbage collection workers. Even though that is apparently what the numbers say, I can't help but believe it is divorced from reality in terms of practical day-to-day life. In other words, if the average person was forced to choose to either…

All of this time, I guess, people have just mistaken Oprah's value and you have finally figured it out. Go tell them! Then they can reallocate their money towards more garbage workers! While you are at it make sure to let these fools know to sell all their diamonds and trade them for water. After all, water is necessary for life and diamonds are useless. They simply don't understand that the water has more value! How…

I am not telling people what they should or should not value.

*edited

Re: My own private basic income

#242

Post by int_19h »

rrggrr wrote: post #207
rayiner wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating two different roles: owner and operator. While many owners, particularly of smaller businesses, wear both hats, your responses to points (1) and (3) arise out of wearing the operator hat, not the owner hat. For the companies that comprise most of the economy (less than half of U.S. GDP is attributable to small businesses), ownership and operatorship are distinct roles. The CEO of GE is not the compa…

US small businesses, collectively, are the largest employer of US citizens, especially at the margins of society where the author's "right to say no" is at its weakest. Its these small businesses, trying to accumulate wealth through property rights and rent-seeking, that would be disproportionately impacted were the author's philosophy to be adopted.

The author's philosophy is not to prohibit rent-seeking, but to tax it appropriately.

Given that it's currently taxed less than income from labor, I don't see what's so controversial about that notion.

Re: My own private basic income

#243

Post by int_19h »

harryh wrote: post #189
edpichler wrote: post #95

The article is about something that should be obvious, capitalism: money goes to the capital owner. Of course this has a lot of problems, but it's the best we have today. On this system, the rules of the game are: we need to work and spend less than we earn, and use the money to accumulate more capital, an not buying more things.

In the US, the vast majority of gross national income goes to labor not capital. FWIW.

Of course, there's also a lot more laborers than capitalists. By orders of magnitude.

How about per capita for each group?

Re: My own private basic income

#244

Post by [deleted] »

rrggrr wrote: post #82

Gosh. OP made me sad with his thesis. "1. For owners, work is optional." ... As an owner I wish this were true. For me and most owners I know work is mandatory, and its 60 hour weeks and a lot of sleepless nights. There is no safety net. There is no unemployment. I get no workman's compensation. I have no employment law protections. Its, as one HN comment said some time ago, "a suffering contest" a lot of the time. "…

[deleted]

Re: My own private basic income

#245

Post by vitaminbandit »

rrggrr wrote: post #117
urethrafranklin wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the whole article? You totally whooshed on the meaning of owner .

You are wrong. The author is very much concerned about the employer-employee relationship. Not only did I read the article, I also read the OPs bio and glanced at his philosophy toward property rights. He appears to have come to the conclusion that the social contract isn't really beneficial, and that Hobbes state of nature isn't a thing, and that left to their own devices - people's better angels will bring about hi…

Ah when all else fails, go for the ol' ad hominem.

Re: My own private basic income

#246

Post by ableton »

If you live in America you can do what you want. You can study hard and get a scholarship to college even if you are really poor as a kid. I know a poor Mexican immigrant who's kids all got college degrees for free. It doesn't really matter if you grow up poor (in America). There are many people who are very rich precisely because being poor as kids drove them to work hard. What does matter is if you grew up in a stable family. If you don't have that you get really whacked out paychologically, and it can affect people for their whole lives. People look to the government to tax and spend to solve social problems. However, oftentimes the government is the cause of such problems in the first place. For example, we see a huge number of people in prison today. Well studies show that 60% of people in prison grew up without a father in the home. The government today actively promotes divorce and children out of wedlock through paying single mothers. The "compassion" has raised a generation of young people who are lost. America has more money than ever but our families are falling apart, torn up by divorce and pornography, and our young people are paying the price. The government should focus on supporting strong families, and you would watch and see so many major social problems evaporate. I know that I am where I am today because of my dads positive influence on me. Without his support I would be nowhere right now. Every kid needs a loving family. It's time the government starts trying to promote that.

Of course in Quatar they have serious human rights issues that need to be resolved. I'm just talking about in America.

Re: My own private basic income

#247

Post by dang »

ethereumnomad wrote: post #235
wturner wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@tqi So when you get down to the numbers and the prevalent value assumptions we all have, Oprah Winfrey (one person) provides more value to the country than 2/3's of the nations garbage collection workers. Even though that is apparently what the numbers say, I can't help but believe it is divorced from reality in terms of practical day-to-day life. In other words, if the average person was forced to choose to either…

All of this time, I guess, people have just mistaken Oprah's value and you have finally figured it out. Go tell them! Then they can reallocate their money towards more garbage workers! While you are at it make sure to let these fools know to sell all their diamonds and trade them for water. After all, water is necessary for life and diamonds are useless. They simply don't understand that the water has more value! How…

No one is allowed to post like this to HN, so we've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's guidelines with.

Re: My own private basic income

#248

Post by [deleted] »

wturner wrote: post #241
ethereumnomad wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this time, I guess, people have just mistaken Oprah's value and you have finally figured it out. Go tell them! Then they can reallocate their money towards more garbage workers! While you are at it make sure to let these fools know to sell all their diamonds and trade them for water. After all, water is necessary for life and diamonds are useless. They simply don't understand that the water has more value! How…

I am not telling people what they should or should not value. *edited

[deleted]

Re: My own private basic income

#249

Post by pavement »

zanny wrote: post #193
pavement wrote: post #92

nor is there a combination of bad choices that could conceivably put me in their position from my starting point. Guess again.

An American born citizen will (statistically) never be an indentured servant / migrant slave in oil rich countries.

I can conceive of a combination of bad choices that could place a person in such a predicament. Unlikely choices, but choices, when taken, certainly resulting in the described outcome.

It's not an inaccessible scenario, but unlikely to be anything other than a forced outcome for someone like the author. For those in mind, who actually face the true reality, it's usually accidental.

Re: My own private basic income

#250

Post by pg314 »

xienze wrote: post #116
pg314 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even worse than you describe. For the part he doesn't sell, no taxes are owed on the capital gains. Only when capital gains are realised, are taxes owed. If he holds onto that stock forever he can keep compounding forever, without every being taxed.

Well you also can't spend paper gains, you have to sell and therefore pay taxes. And you could, you know, lose money in the stock market.

> Well you also can't spend paper gains, you have to sell and therefore pay taxes.

Wealthy people don't have to spend their capital. They have enough income through e.g. dividends. E.g. Warren Buffett bought (through Berkshire Hathaway) Coca-Cola in 1989, and has never sold a single share. He has indicated he plans to keep holding on to them forever. Hence, he will never pay taxes on the capital gains.

> And you could, you know, lose money in the stock market.

That is true. But how is that relevant?

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