As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating • Hacker News Board

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#241

Post by austincheney » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:55 PM UTC

oregondan wrote: post #211

austincheney wrote: post #209

As a JavaScript developer none of this matters to me. Here is the reality I see: JavaScript skills are in demand almost everywhere even if it is not the primary language or skill of a given job. Almost nobody receives any kind of formal education or training in how to write in JavaScript. If you work for a web based company you WILL at some point be tasked to write in JavaScript. When developers, who have never touch…

What?? This seems like a road that only leads to technical debt brought on by people who, as you say, know nothing about the code they're working on. Why would you feel that's acceptable to a company? Fortunately software development (often) has little direct impact on matters of life or death, but can you imagine an architect or construction worker who successfully cheated their way through school being brought on a…

> This seems like a road that only leads to technical debt brought on by people who

This technology is littered by technical debt by people doing everything they can to cheat. We are already there. That line in the sand was crossed years ago.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#242

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:56 PM UTC

strictnein wrote: post #240

I "cheated" in one of my junior level CompSci classes. Forget what the name of it was, but we ended up doing a fair amount with low level debugging/analysis, assembly, etc. One of the big multi-week projects had a series of increasingly difficult questions about different aspects of a compiled program that you were supposed to figure out. We were told we could use whatever tools we were comfortable with using. So I u…

That sounds like an inspired and competent solution to the problem. Given that the article focused on pre-made work shared amongst students, this hardly sounds like cheating at all.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#243

Post by emidln » Tue, May 30, 2017, 3:05 PM UTC

jmkni wrote: post #129

chrismcb wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And most of these people can't code fizzbuzz... Which is why it is so important to ask a question line that. Most of these people will also fail a whiteboard interview spectacularly.

The thing About FizBuzz is that, if you Google programmer interview questions , it's the first thing that shows up and takes about 2 minutes to wrap your head around. Somebody who can't do Fizzbuzz in an interview has literally done zero preparation for that interview.

If a candidate can google the problem, understand it, and then learn how to write a simple variation of it they have demonstrated all the skills necessary to be a useful coder at an awful lot of companies. I'd kinda prefer them to learn basic programming a little more ahead of time, but I honestly don't care when you learn how to program.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#244

Post by bluGill » Tue, May 30, 2017, 3:10 PM UTC

princekolt wrote: post #233

glangdale wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the trajectory: Fake your way through basic CS courses. Find your way into group-work heavy projects in later years, possibly doing enough ancillary aspects of the work to be semi-useful. It will be likely that your other group members will find it easier to grin and bear it. Optionally: do a Masters or PhD. Plagiarize your work, or potentially hire someone to do it for you. Continue into the work force, focus…

I have never interviewed/hired anyone, but the more I work as a developer the more I feel challenged to do it and invent techniques to detect liars. One thing with science on the side of truth is that the simplest questions (such as "what's the difference between a boolean and an integer?") can have extremely complicated and deep answers that lead to crazy discussions about formal definitions or implementations on di…

There is actually a lot of research into how to conduct interviews for useful answers. They all come down to you need a deep discussion.

What works well is some form of "tell me about a time when ...". The candidate gets to tell a story of their choosing, but the discussion is long enough that they can't keep track of their lies...

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#245

Post by sevagh » Tue, May 30, 2017, 3:13 PM UTC

skookumchuck wrote: post #165

xor1 wrote: post #98

Anecdote time: My friend is currently doing a Computer Science MS at a university that I'm sure most people on HN have heard of. She got accepted with an unrelated undergrad degree (though still STEM) and two Intro to Programming community college courses she took after graduating (which she cheated her way through by paying her roommate at the time to do all of her homework). She hits me up for help with her homewor…

> it's cost me a lot I've had jobs where I had to sit around and pretend to be busy. They're awful. I much, much prefer to have challenging work to do. > My friend I don't care to have friends like that. Cheaters will eventually try to scam their friends, too. Besides, cheaters are boring losers.

>I've had jobs where I had to sit around and pretend to be busy. They're awful. I much, much prefer to have challenging work to do.

Agreed with this. I haven't been more miserable in my career than when I was just moldering in a corporate body shop.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#246

Post by emidln » Tue, May 30, 2017, 3:17 PM UTC

b0rsuk wrote: post #236

Most of these articles read: "They cheat because A, B, and C... it could be because of D..." I would love to read an article which is like: "I cheat because X..." "I cheat because Y..." "We cheated because Z..." In other words, an article or a study based on an anonymous survey. Straight from the horse's mouth.

I helped people cheat because it paid better than working fast food. I never took an exam, but I did a lot of assignments. I kinda felt bad for some of the students who were taught Java for a couple semesters and then thrown into C for an operating systems class. I also figured that they'd just fail the exam if they didn't learn it eventually (which happened frequently, usually resulting in more work/money for me next semester).

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#247

Post by fab13n » Tue, May 30, 2017, 3:30 PM UTC

princekolt wrote: post #233

glangdale wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the trajectory: Fake your way through basic CS courses. Find your way into group-work heavy projects in later years, possibly doing enough ancillary aspects of the work to be semi-useful. It will be likely that your other group members will find it easier to grin and bear it. Optionally: do a Masters or PhD. Plagiarize your work, or potentially hire someone to do it for you. Continue into the work force, focus…

I have never interviewed/hired anyone, but the more I work as a developer the more I feel challenged to do it and invent techniques to detect liars. One thing with science on the side of truth is that the simplest questions (such as "what's the difference between a boolean and an integer?") can have extremely complicated and deep answers that lead to crazy discussions about formal definitions or implementations on di…

The truth is, you don't need anything elaborate to expose a fraudster.

Give a very simple programmatic task, a paper (or a blackboard) and a pencil. As you watch the interviewee elaborate his solution, and as you discuss it with them, you'll immediately see if programs are a deeply foreign object to their mind, or something they're fluent with.

The point is not syntax, forgotten semicolons, or even knowledge of libraries. Don't bother with design patterns either, the kind of tasks we're talking about is too simplistic for them to be meaningful: just watch whether translating a task into program snippets comes naturally to them. If they can do that, they can learn, and probably have learnt a great bit already.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#248

Post by emidln » Tue, May 30, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #96

lacampbell wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

quite often the plan in the mind of these folks is that they will try to fake their way through and be moved up into project management Wait a minute, are you saying all I have to do to be promoted to Project Management is to code really badly? Hmm. I wonder if C# has GOTOs...

Even better! It has exceptions! You can write code that deliberately throws an exception where the handler calls a function. It's more like come-froms than GOTOs. Please don't do this.

This is a somewhat common (possibly even 'Pythonic') idiom in Python.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#249

Post by emmelaich » Tue, May 30, 2017, 3:37 PM UTC

glangdale wrote: post #23

This is hugely important as a lot of people see programming as a ticket into higher-end jobs and will spend as little time as individual contributors as they can. The idea that "oh, they'll get caught in the workforce" is not correct - quite often the plan in the mind of these folks is that they will try to fake their way through and be moved up into project management, technical marketing, etc. and never have their…

Wow, I was a student there at the same time.

Cheating was rampant. The submittal box for assignments had a big enough slot that smaller arms/hands could reach inside. I saw people do that: grab someone else's assignment, copy it and put both back in the box. The school didn't seem to care.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#250

Post by cavanasm » Tue, May 30, 2017, 3:37 PM UTC

consp wrote: post #205

komerdoor wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company in the Netherlands sometimes hires me to help them guide the interns. They are what is called a learning-company over here. Out of the 100 IT interns every year there are usually about 5 that know more than only the basics. This has been a consistent pattern I've seen over the last 4 years. It does not matter what level education they are having. Many times I even had to explain what functions, conditions e…

I've been an assistant on 1st to 3rd year bachelors courses in CS in the Netherlands (basic OOP, Software Architecture and Algorithmics like courses) and probably seen many of the types of copying and forgery. I can concur that most students don't really understand but just regurgitate what has been said even at Academic levels. On some Examples of what i've seen which sometimes leads to the types of interns you give…

I've had group assignments where group review had the ability to fail an individual member if they were a non-contributor. Every project I had with that professor had at least one person in my group who was a non-contributor (and was outed by the group in review, resulting in a failing grade).