Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#241

Post by aianus » Sat, May 06, 2017, 5:59 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #90

elihu wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Books also don't provide credentials. Having knowledge about a topic isn't usually sufficient to get to the interview stage.

"code schools" don't provide credentials either. This isn't talking about providing college education to veterans, that is already covered by the GI bill. This is about "coding bootcamp" and "make an iPhone app in two weeks" sort of school. And that doesn't play any better in an interview than self-learning.

Good code schools have existing relationships with recruiters and employers that will get students interviews.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#242

Post by nkozyra » Sat, May 06, 2017, 7:09 PM UTC

fictioncircle wrote: post #239

nkozyra wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It isn't irrelevant if you are attempting to implement it correctly. Exactly my point. Rarely is there one "correct" implementation. Understanding the choice you make and can support is the point of coding interviews. That's why they're so often done in pseudocode and/or on the whiteboard. If you can look stuff up you're not demonstrating a knowledge of the fundamentals. If you don't understand complexity and optim…

> Exactly my point. Rarely is there one "correct" implementation. For any given problem asked in such interviews there is certainly one correct implementation and if you believe otherwise you are not providing sufficient information to answer such a question. > Understanding the choice you make and can support is the point of coding interviews. That's why they're so often done in pseudocode and/or on the whiteboard.…

2) and 4) and 5) are strawmen. It is -in fact- possible to understand the fundamentals and look things up.

As to your assertion that there is one "true algorithm," the merits of that stand for itself, but regardless being able to explain WHY is what an interviewer should look for.

"Go Google and implement some algorithm" does not provide a useful metric other than "can use a computer."

All of this also ignores a more pressing issue: that looking something up often means getting bad results. Can the applicant draw on knowledge of complexity to distill their Google search? Without that types of test your answer is "hopefully."

That's why Google, FB, etc start with whiteboard tests. Anyone can search and implement.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#243

Post by mgirdley » Sat, May 06, 2017, 7:13 PM UTC

Few code schools accept GI Bill because it requires them to have been in business for 2 years prior to applying to accept it. There's little stopping schools from getting approved, but the problem is most haven't enough track record or get denied when the VA investigates them.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#244

Post by fictioncircle » Sat, May 06, 2017, 8:25 PM UTC

nkozyra wrote: post #242

fictioncircle wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exactly my point. Rarely is there one "correct" implementation. For any given problem asked in such interviews there is certainly one correct implementation and if you believe otherwise you are not providing sufficient information to answer such a question. > Understanding the choice you make and can support is the point of coding interviews. That's why they're so often done in pseudocode and/or on the whiteboard.…

2) and 4) and 5) are strawmen. It is -in fact- possible to understand the fundamentals and look things up. As to your assertion that there is one "true algorithm," the merits of that stand for itself, but regardless being able to explain WHY is what an interviewer should look for. "Go Google and implement some algorithm" does not provide a useful metric other than "can use a computer." All of this also ignores a more…

> Can the applicant draw on knowledge of complexity to distill their Google search? Without that types of test your answer is "hopefully."

It isn't difficult to structure a complex question that requires research and have the answer you claim is impossible to find.

> That's why Google, FB, etc start with whiteboard tests. Anyone can search and implement.

I'm sure that is what you believe but that doesn't make it true.

> 2) and 4) and 5) are strawmen. It is -in fact- possible to understand the fundamentals and look things up.

I've never met an engineer (or any professional implementing complex processes) who simultaneously grasped the fundamentals of all areas where they needed to possess competence from memory. (Yes, that includes myself in case you are wondering.)

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#245

Post by inopinatus » Sat, May 06, 2017, 8:41 PM UTC

greggman wrote: post #182

I would love for more people to code and I would love for veterans for find work but .... My impression is those who excel at coding (like everything else) love doing it. So, I would expect the majority to fail. It's doesn't seem like a skill like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point). My point is, whenever I…

I think you're perceiving a dichotomy between "excel" and "fail", and then compounding this with conjecture that this is a) correlated to enthusiasm and b) something that needs fixing.

From my experience - I've seen many different programmers in many different situations over the last three decades - I think I can recall enough counterexamples to suggest all three points are misperceptions.

> "They're just doing it hoping to get a job...."

Why can't it just be a day job?

By the same token, I suck at programming even though I love it (and have enough experience to fake it).

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#246

Post by philippoi » Sat, May 06, 2017, 9:30 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #213

philippoi wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd suggest most people who excel at bike riding approach it with the same enthusiasm and drive as you attribute to the programmers who excel (to your credit, you mention "everything else" is the same, which would include cycling until you pick it out as an anecdote at the end of the paragraph) and that's before achieving a level where they can actually make money on their cycling ability. To run with your analogy th…

>There would be a significant portion of the working population that understood the idea of what their computers were made to do You don't need programming for that. A good mental model of modern computing is important but programming is overkill. >improve their ability ability to leverage these machines to assist them in achieving their tasks even more efficiently. Ok but it doesn't work like that. I don't know what…

I agree! Good points. Financial literacy is next on my list, personally (any recommendations?).

As charged, it is a utopia I was picturing, but I often like to mentally dabble in that terrain as I find it can expose potential paths forward. Sure, the envisioned Utopia won't be the actual destination, but its artificial brightness makes bumps that I normally easily miss suddenly salient.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#247

Post by gargalatas » Sat, May 06, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

It's obvious that most of you didn't serve to the army of your country. If you did then you would know their level of IQ, perception, education (science in general, maths etc). These people have their brains washed in an irreversible level. Even their educational levels are very low. In the army school (or whatever it's called) they learn to make war not engineering. And their perception? Ohh.. It's simply distorted. They cannot translate a single command they have given with success. But this is army, people on top only occasionally deal with real problems and they never look back to check from the moment they give the command to their inferior. Most of the time they deal with the Shave or the clean boots or the parade!

But hey! They are perfect doing other things! They are good supervisors and devoted to single tasks outside of the office. And I think that this is the key to their inner world and the most significant reason for their failure: Single Tasks + Reality Distortion

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#248

Post by rvdavis » Sat, May 06, 2017, 9:47 PM UTC

gargalatas wrote: post #247

It's obvious that most of you didn't serve to the army of your country. If you did then you would know their level of IQ, perception, education (science in general, maths etc). These people have their brains washed in an irreversible level. Even their educational levels are very low. In the army school (or whatever it's called) they learn to make war not engineering. And their perception? Ohh.. It's simply distorted.…

Veteran here. Most of us are a humble bunch, but I've met some incredibly gifted individuals while serving... and I served in the US Army Infantry. I would encourage you to rethink your uninformed opinions of us.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#249

Post by jpttsn » Sat, May 06, 2017, 10:00 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #213

philippoi wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd suggest most people who excel at bike riding approach it with the same enthusiasm and drive as you attribute to the programmers who excel (to your credit, you mention "everything else" is the same, which would include cycling until you pick it out as an anecdote at the end of the paragraph) and that's before achieving a level where they can actually make money on their cycling ability. To run with your analogy th…

>There would be a significant portion of the working population that understood the idea of what their computers were made to do You don't need programming for that. A good mental model of modern computing is important but programming is overkill. >improve their ability ability to leverage these machines to assist them in achieving their tasks even more efficiently. Ok but it doesn't work like that. I don't know what…

Is it easy to get to a good mental model of computing, without programming?

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#250

Post by ilaksh » Sat, May 06, 2017, 10:01 PM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #203

greggman wrote: post #182

I would love for more people to code and I would love for veterans for find work but .... My impression is those who excel at coding (like everything else) love doing it. So, I would expect the majority to fail. It's doesn't seem like a skill like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point). My point is, whenever I…

It's not just the passion but the ability to excel at it. I believe it's correlated with IQ. Most people want to believe it's teachable, because stating otherwise sounds cruel and elitist, but I see no reason to believe that it's not innate. If you have it, then learning and practicing can help bring it your potential. If you don't have it, you'll just be frustrated all the time trying to wrestle with the computer.

Well there's built-in cognitive ability and then there are practical skills and knowledge in particular areas. The built-up wiring often factors in more I think. The main feature of intelligence is actually compression. So its like judging the performance of a compression library in the case where you need to add one file to an archive -- you need to factor in the size and contents of the existing archive.

https://www.quora.com/Information-Theory-What-is-the-relatio...