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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#241

Post by koolba »

rdslw wrote: post #216
ehsankia wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not on either side here, but I feel like you're missing the point there. Let's say someone does modify the code, then the machine messes up and ends up killing someone. Who would be the culprit there? I guess they could have something that detects when the software is modified, but even if they did, I bet it would still be poor publicity for them (similar to when people misuse Tesla's assist and getting in accidents)…

No. JD is a knife manufacturer who puts countermeasures to prohibit knives owners from sharpening second side of the blade (among others things). Because it can be dangerous.

It sounds like you can't sharpen the first side either. Or more aptly, replace the handle of the knife when it gets worn.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#242

Post by bigtimeidiot »

jdietrich wrote: post #233
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Don't try to bullshit us. Your code is deliberately user-hostile. Farmers aren't trying to hack their tractors for the sake of it; they need to hack the parts of your code that prevent them from performing routine maintenance. Replacing a fuel pump is not going to turn a tractor into a rampaging death machine. You are using spurious safety arguments to justify profiteering. Software lock-outs are being used to prop u…

>Don't try to bullshit us.

Us? Who is "us"? Why are you trying to shout down an opposing view? You want prefer the echo chamber?

>Replacing a fuel pump is not going to turn a tractor into a rampaging death machine.

Am I going to be able to replace whatever parts I want on my Model 3? Because "we" certainly love that company here!

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#243

Post by icebraining »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #118
LVB wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK I've gotta ask, with such a strong push for "eliminating intellectual property protections", why bother with this footer on your site: © 2017 Objective Bias. All rights reserved.

It's a tangent but I'm all for calling out hipocracy. Author should've used Creative Commons or public domain.

It's not hypocrisy. Defending an overall elimination of IP is not the same as supporting individual self-abnegation. Self-sacrifice that doesn't lead to the desired goal is just masochism.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#244

Post by acdha »

keyme wrote: post #221
pjc50 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.. to get sued for patent infringement. Or DMCA violation.

This is interoperability. At the very least this is a gray area.

Those are potentially why the lawsuit would fail if you're lucky. You'd still have to fight it at ruinous cost for a small business – and expect customers to disappear if there's any chance they'd be included.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#245

Post by thearn4 »

froindt wrote: post #40
thearn4 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a fair amount of competition in this space. Around me, I see a lot of Kubota, New Holland, etc. Not too many John Deeres actually.

> Around me, I see a lot of Kubota, New Holland, etc. Not too many John Deeres actually. Around Iowa I see these brands as well, but I don't see Kubota and New Holland as being as massive and innovative as Deere and Cat are/can be. John Deere has been notorious in the legal system in its pursuit of these locks on software. They have very good autonomy software which gets better every season, and distinguishes them fr…

I'm in N.E. Ohio, just outside the Cleveland metro area. The croplands here aren't at large as what you'd see in central OH, but plot sizes of around a hundred acres aren't too hard to spot.

That's a good point that autonomy could be a big deal for some consumers, and I bet larger plot size is a factor in that.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#246

Post by icebraining »

bitwize wrote: post #57
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Companies like Microsoft would vanish" Heaven forbid! :-D I go around telling people what I think of copyright all the time, and this argument is one that I hear a lot. But I don't buy it. The body of open source content available today is proof that your argument is at the very least incomplete. Plenty of people do give their time away for free to make better things available to people without monetary benefit. A k…

Try making friends with a musician. Make sure they're a local act or play in a local band. Often they have mouths to feed and mortgages to pay, and would love to do so with their art but can't because the economics don't support it. Almost invariably, they talk about how it used to be better, back when people bought physical phonograph albums; among the musicians I know the politics are uniform: strong copyright help…

Like you said: we already have copyright, and yet they can't making a living from music anyway. How's that an argument for keeping it around?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#247

Post by [deleted] »

averagewall wrote: post #110
cookiecaper wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, reining copyright terms in, putting in strong protections for individuals and hobbyists so that copyright is irrelevant to anyone with less than $1M in revenue, and liberalizing fair use (which unfortunately probably also means seriously overhauling our judicial processes to be not horrendously slow and expensive) would make copyright far more tolerable. IMO the ideal would be something like 10 year copyright te…

Less than $1M? Then my personal business would evaporate because everyone would copy it for free. I provide value to people and they pay me and it supports my family. You're saying I should stop doing that work and become, I don't know, a bricklayer instead? I won't be able to do open source work because that doesn't generate money.

[deleted]

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#248

Post by [deleted] »

bigtimeidiot wrote: post #236
bartl wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Let's say someone does modify the code. Let's not. These farmers don't want to change the software . They only want to fix their hardware. And because of the close tightness with the software, they can't.

Do you think I can pull the electric motor from my Model S to replace it? When John Deere does this, HN is up in arms. When Tesla does it, it's part of an "innovative business model".

[deleted]

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#249

Post by georgyo »

bigtimeidiot wrote: post #236
bartl wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Let's say someone does modify the code. Let's not. These farmers don't want to change the software . They only want to fix their hardware. And because of the close tightness with the software, they can't.

Do you think I can pull the electric motor from my Model S to replace it? When John Deere does this, HN is up in arms. When Tesla does it, it's part of an "innovative business model".

I think if you had the part and replaced it, your car would turn on without a Tesla engineer recertifying it.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#250

Post by tobltobs »

bigtimeidiot wrote: post #242
jdietrich wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't try to bullshit us. Your code is deliberately user-hostile. Farmers aren't trying to hack their tractors for the sake of it; they need to hack the parts of your code that prevent them from performing routine maintenance. Replacing a fuel pump is not going to turn a tractor into a rampaging death machine. You are using spurious safety arguments to justify profiteering. Software lock-outs are being used to prop u…

> Don't try to bullshit us. Us ? Who is "us"? Why are you trying to shout down an opposing view? You want prefer the echo chamber? > Replacing a fuel pump is not going to turn a tractor into a rampaging death machine. Am I going to be able to replace whatever parts I want on my Model 3? Because "we" certainly love that company here!

Your comparison to Tesla doesn't get better just by repeating it a few times. If your Tesla breaks down you wont have any problem to get a comparable replacement car. Much luck to get a replacement for your tractor during harvest season.
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