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Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

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Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#241

Post by abduhl »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #239
abduhl wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt Bertha will be purchasable given the litigation on the SR 99 job. I don't know what you would be able or want to use it for - it's 58.5 ft in diameter. It is unlikely that you will get an inventory of all the parts in the machine. If you really want a machine then you would just call the contractor and ask them their price. You would likely have to pay for delivery. The process to establish whether or not one…

> I doubt Bertha will be purchasable given the > litigation on the SR 99 job. Can you say a bit more about this? I had reasoned that the litigation would make it more likely that Bertha would be purchasable as a way to offset costs/losses for the party that holds title to the equipment. > I don't know what you would be able or want to > use it for - it's 58.5 ft in diameter. One of the longest bus routes in the Bay A…

>Can you say a bit more about this?

No, I can't.

Regarding the rest of your post, you would need to carry out a geotechnical investigation to see if the soils are amenable to a machine like Bertha. I would guess not, based on my experience in both areas, due to the differences in the geology.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#242

Post by sunstone »

shabble wrote: post #93

My laymen's understanding (from various documentaries & articles) is that the expensive part of tunnel construction is managing the transitions between different materials. Boring through hard rock might be slow, but hitting pockets of mud, loose rock and other things (especially when unexpected) can seriously mess up the works, and cause massive delays due to machine damage or reassessment and reinforcement/collapse…

It's likely that Musk has a new technique in mind for tunnelling otherwise what's the point of going it alone?

What is the new technique? Well that would be laser drilling into the face on a slight downward slant; then fill that with liquid nitrogen. Wait for a half hour or so for things to freeze up and then smack the whole thing with a huge hammer and it'll all crack right open.

Am I dreaming? :)

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#243

Post by woodandsteel »

The article says, "Musk thinks flying cars are a dumb idea"

So we're not going to get a flying version of the Tesla? Darn.

It also says, "We have skyscrapers with all these levels, and we have a flat, two-dimensional road system,” he says. “When everyone decides to go into these structures and then exits them at the same time, you’re going to get jammed.” Tunnels, on the other hand, would represent a 3D transportation network."

Now that makes some sense.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#244

Post by astrodust »

woodandsteel wrote: post #243

The article says, "Musk thinks flying cars are a dumb idea" So we're not going to get a flying version of the Tesla? Darn. It also says, "We have skyscrapers with all these levels, and we have a flat, two-dimensional road system,” he says. “When everyone decides to go into these structures and then exits them at the same time, you’re going to get jammed.” Tunnels, on the other hand, would represent a 3D transportatio…

He might be a smart guy but this tunnel idea is completely idiotic.

Digging tunnels is easy. Digging tunnels that can carry vehicular traffic, that meet safety standards, that don't disrupt the buildings above them, that don't shift or collapse due to seismic faults, that don't interfere with or collide into other infrastructure is hard.

If tunnels were easy, if tunnels were the future, the clusterfuck of crazy that is the Seattle tunnel wouldn't have happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_Way_Viaduct_replacemen...

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#245

Post by abduhl »

woodandsteel wrote: post #238
abduhl wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I design both boring machines and tunnels and am a regular reader on HN. I have worked on tunnels ranging from the smallest to the largest, rock to soil, and all forms of construction. I have stopped commenting on any tunnel related Elon topic due to people refusing to believe my experience and expertise when it does not align with what Elon Musk and his team of "experts" have said or published in their desk studies.

Everything you have to say on this topic may be perfectly correct. But you have to remember that Musk has a habit of producing major technological advances that the all experts had previously agreed were simply impossible.

I look forward to his major technological advances, especially in the fields of property and easement acquisition, third party impacts and claims, and environmental and safety regulations.

Hopefully Elon's advances aren't the same as the cure for AIDS: http://southpark.cc.com/clips/164373/they-found-a-cure-for-a...

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#246

Post by taberiand »

tshannon wrote: post #220
shabble wrote: post #93

My laymen's understanding (from various documentaries & articles) is that the expensive part of tunnel construction is managing the transitions between different materials. Boring through hard rock might be slow, but hitting pockets of mud, loose rock and other things (especially when unexpected) can seriously mess up the works, and cause massive delays due to machine damage or reassessment and reinforcement/collapse…

If uncertainty is such a big problem, aren't there any technology solutions for it? Can radar be used to tell the density of materials along the whole boring route?

What about Sonar?

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#247

Post by decker »

I have to wonder how effective he will be at advancing tunnel boring using existing technology. From the article, it sounds like he has no figures of the cost breakdown on a standard tunnel boring project such as the fixed costs like moving and assembling the machine, or the variable costs like how much is spent on materials, labor, etc. Given that, I'm skeptical that he can bring down the cost of tunneling since this approach seems to eschew a first principals based approach to the problem. I'm guessing that he really just wants to be able to build a federally subsidized tunnel from LAX to the SpaceX office so he doesn't have to sit in traffic.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#248

Post by Turing_Machine »

ericd wrote: post #55
RichardHeart wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you move into a bigger house, your hallways will not fill up with more traffic. Currently humans are required at least 1 per car. Thus the housing and employment of those humans is more of a limiting factor on road demand, or perhaps car ownership or desire to drive somewhere, more so than availability of roads.

If roads are clearer, then people tend to move farther from work, which increases the number of cars on the road at any given time. Then the roads clog up again. Increased highway construction has been enabling people to move farther and farther out into exurbs (which people think will be nice places to live, and cheaper, but that turn out create rather shabby quality of life compared to walkable cities).

"(which people think will be nice places to live, and cheaper, but that turn out create rather shabby quality of life compared to walkable cities)."

"Shabby quality of life" by whose standards? The people who actually live there? I think not.

If life in the suburbs actually sucked, people simply wouldn't stay there. It's not like they're given a one-way exit visa when they leave the city. They could move back any time they wanted. But, as a group, they never do. The reason they don't is because they find the amenities found in the suburbs (in specific, safety, cleanliness, room for their possessions, privacy, and better schools) preferable to those found in the cities. "Preferable" here means preferable by their standards, which are not the same as those of a single 22 year old programmer, or a single 30-something art connoisseur, or...

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#249

Post by ChuckMcM »

abduhl wrote: post #245
woodandsteel wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have to say on this topic may be perfectly correct. But you have to remember that Musk has a habit of producing major technological advances that the all experts had previously agreed were simply impossible.

I look forward to his major technological advances, especially in the fields of property and easement acquisition, third party impacts and claims, and environmental and safety regulations. Hopefully Elon's advances aren't the same as the cure for AIDS: http://southpark.cc.com/clips/164373/they-found-a-cure-for-a...

   > I have stopped commenting on any tunnel related 
   > Elon topic due to people refusing to believe my
   > experience and expertise when it does not align
   > with what Elon Musk and his team of "experts" 
   > have said or published in their desk studies.
I think you may be misreading the response here. When you write comments in a snarky way (as you did in the parent of this comment) it completely obscures your information to the reader because they respond emotionally to the snark first. I truly believe that the number of people with your experience reading this is probably in the low single digits, so you have a tremendous amount to offer. It is easier to hear it if you put it out there with respect rather than disdain.

Had you phrased it like this

"The challenges are less technical and more in the political side of infrastructure, property and easement acquisition, dealing with spurious suits from third parties, and the ever present complex series of environmental and safety regulations. While I admire Elon's ambition and desire to get things done, these political issues have stymied projects literally for decades, and I can't see even his star power being able to defeat rampant NIMBYism."

It would be easier to hear your expertise in your writing.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#250

Post by erikpukinskis »

shabble wrote: post #93

My laymen's understanding (from various documentaries & articles) is that the expensive part of tunnel construction is managing the transitions between different materials. Boring through hard rock might be slow, but hitting pockets of mud, loose rock and other things (especially when unexpected) can seriously mess up the works, and cause massive delays due to machine damage or reassessment and reinforcement/collapse…

> big TBMs are heavily bespoke systems specifically built for their planned route, and it's not unusual to just scrap them after the job is done.

Would you say, they are expensive powerful machines built for a single use to be thrown away? Where much of the expense is due to the lack of re-usability?

I wonder if Elon Musk has any experience with anything like that.

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