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Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

theguardian.com

241–250 of 264 posts

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#241
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My purebred brachy dog isn't a rescue. It's very difficult to acquire the breed of dog we own through rescues. The middle ground you say we should be on doesn't apply to me: you've made a continuous thread of arguments that what my family did was unethical, and I'm challenging you about that. Clearly, you don't believe my family was obligated to acquire a second dog. Clearly, you don't believe my brachycephalic dog s…

In which case yes, I believe what you did was unethical, in suporrting the continued production of dogs known to suffer severe health problems. You chose, deliberately, a.dog breed that would suffer, when there are others that would have suited the situation just as well.

You can believe my choice to own pugs is unethical and cruel, but I am not persuaded by your reasoning. I do not believe I have done anything wrong, and my dogs Bailey and Maya are not suffering. I will now end any further engagement with you.

If you want to engage in spirited debate with people and learn to persuade people to your point of view, have a look at this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0dCTvX0wzs&feature=youtu.be...

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we invented dogs. So while it is a good morale argument that breeding co-dependency into a species and infantilizing an otherwise very self-sufficient predator is a bad thing, its probably not going to happen. At least not in our lifetime. Which brings us back to improving the standards for breeding that we have today. Some dogs, such as Dalmatians and Bulldogs, are genetic atrocities and should not be bred in…

I don't know why people buy dalmatians. My only experience with the breed was my childhood friend's dalmation, who was an asshole and bit me. But I do know why people buy bulldogs. They're easygoing. They have high medical and upkeep maintenance costs, but very low day-to-day costs. They're suitable for families with small children or other pets. They're grateful for play time when it's available, but not harmed by p…

Isn't that a bit of a misrepresentation of the problem though? The genetic problems that bulldogs exhibit aren't results of the traits you mention, but of conformance to a breed standard and the trends of a very small minority of bulldog owners (those that show them).

Unfortunately, that small minority drives the cost of bulldogs and thus drives the breeders. If the bulldog standard was revised to a healthier expectation and the show dog fashion was for more robust dogs, the breed would improve in the areas where it falters now and it wouldn't impact the traits you mentioned right?

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a fair question. Dogs seem very versatile. Dogs are apparently like neonatal wolves, can we breed neonatal humans?

What do you mean by neonatal in this instance? My use of that word would be 'relating to newborn babies'... so "can we breed neonatal humans" seems to imply a different usage?

I think the word intended is "neotenous"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#244
My wife and I got our dog, Andi, from a pound in Tampa, FL shortly after we were married. Andi was about a year old, and insanely hyper. We figured it was just because she was nervous about being stuck in a pound, and excited that we were spending time with her when most other people focused their attention on the younger puppies.

She was one of the older dogs the pound showed us, and we were told it was her last day before they had to euthanize her. I was skeptical at the time, assuming they could easily say this about any dog that they wanted to move quickly, but we fell in love with her and made the decision to adopt her into our family.

She's a mutt, probably part German Shepherd, and part something smaller and more energetic---turned out her hyperactivity was actually a persistent character trait. Despite growing to over 70lbs, in her mind she was a lap dog, incapable of concealing her excitement, jumping all over any guest who came to our home.

When she was 3, we found a tumor on one of her legs and spent what was, to us at the time, a considerable fortune to have it removed. The vet told us that when they tested her blood they found signs that the cancer had already spread, and gave her at most six months to a year to live. I cried about it then.

For the next several years we continued to find tumors and have them removed, each time being told that more tissue and blood tests have confirmed that she's probably not much longer for this world. After several years, we made the decision to stop putting her through the surgeries when new tumors showed up. It was incredibly expensive, it was stressful for her and us during her recoveries (keeping stitches in a dog as hyper as her was incredibly difficult), and she had already far outlived the life expectancy predicted by all of her vets. If it was her time, we decided, then so be it.

The growth of new tumors seemed do die down considerably around the same time we made that decision.

When she was around 10 or 11 years old, her penchant for continuously and violently wagging her foot-long tail at even the slightest provocation finally caught up to her. She somehow injured its tip, so whenever she was excited (several times per day) the wound would re-open and the halls of our house, her sides, and often our pants would get covered in a spattering of blood. No attempt to clean and close it up was successful, so we took the only option available to us. She kept wagging her little stub just as often and violently, starting the very same day we had it cropped.

She's fourteen now, and has finally slowed down. We can tell she's tired. She's at least partially lost control of her bodily functions and regularly has accidents. Her back legs are also starting to give out, causing her difficulty when going up and down stairs in this, the fifth house she's shared with us. Despite being "prepared" for this by a prognosis handed down well over a decade ago, it's still very hard to watch her body and mind slowly wind down. We've started having "the talk" about when we should do her the kindness of ending her suffering.

It's such a difficult topic---are we just "getting rid of her" because she's more annoying to take care of in her old age? Are we "keeping her around" too long despite her obvious suffering due to our own selfishness? How many moments of observed happiness during a day constitutes "enough" to justify her life to continue? How the hell are we supposed to make this kind of decision? These are the kinds of things that run through your head.

She's been a part of our lives for the entire 14 years we've been married, and an even bigger part of our kids' lives, who have not even known a time without her. She's been a kind, sweet, loving, and often infuriating member of our family. I wouldn't trade our time with her for anything. I love her dearly, and those tears I shed for her all those years ago when we found that first tumor are probably coming back for a second and final round some day very soon now.

And so ends my ridiculously maudlin stream-of-consciousness only tangentially-relevant comment. Moral of the story is, if you're looking for a dog, I definitely recommend staying away from the problematic breeds and giving a mutt from the pound a chance, otherwise you could be overlooking a fantastic pet.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We got two spaniels (years apart) from the same breeder. Both died suffering of a number of abnormalities that became pronounced when they got older. Later we found that the breeder was forced to stop altogether because the dogs were so consistently damned. I can still hear what I can only describe as "screaming" by our first spaniel the night she came home after an emergency operation. She had to be let go that nigh…

What kind of spaniels? I've got a working English Springer, healthy so far, from healthy working stock, but reading things like this makes me worry.

American cocker

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why people buy dalmatians. My only experience with the breed was my childhood friend's dalmation, who was an asshole and bit me. But I do know why people buy bulldogs. They're easygoing. They have high medical and upkeep maintenance costs, but very low day-to-day costs. They're suitable for families with small children or other pets. They're grateful for play time when it's available, but not harmed by p…

Isn't that a bit of a misrepresentation of the problem though? The genetic problems that bulldogs exhibit aren't results of the traits you mention, but of conformance to a breed standard and the trends of a very small minority of bulldog owners (those that show them). Unfortunately, that small minority drives the cost of bulldogs and thus drives the breeders. If the bulldog standard was revised to a healthier expecta…

I'm uncertain of that. American bulldogs, for instance, are much more demanding than English bulldogs. Part of what you're buying in a bulldog is a low-energy dog.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why people buy dalmatians. My only experience with the breed was my childhood friend's dalmation, who was an asshole and bit me. But I do know why people buy bulldogs. They're easygoing. They have high medical and upkeep maintenance costs, but very low day-to-day costs. They're suitable for families with small children or other pets. They're grateful for play time when it's available, but not harmed by p…

I looooooove Dalmatian's. They're so pretty and spotty and different looking. On the other hand, I can't for the life of me figure out why someone in their right mind would buy a bulldog. lol. They slobber and fart and cost a small fortune just to keep alive for a reasonable period of time. Not to mention they literally cannot give birth without a C-section which, to me, is just unfathomable to put an animal through…

This is like saying, "if you have a set of requirements X, Y, and Z, don't have those requirements". If we didn't have those requirements, we'd have bought a different dog. If the dog that met those requirements wasn't available, we simply wouldn't have bought another dog. No healthier dog's welfare was impacted by our decision to acquire this particular dog.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#248
Personal anecdote: my family's yorkshire terrier just passed away from lymphangiectasia[0] - essentially his abdominal lymph nodes dilated and he was unable to absorb protein. Poor thing suffered from symptoms related to the disease for most of his life, but it got quite bad in the past couple of months before he passed away.

[0]: http://pets.thenest.com/lymphangiectasia-yorkie-dogs-12246.h...

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why people buy dalmatians. My only experience with the breed was my childhood friend's dalmation, who was an asshole and bit me. But I do know why people buy bulldogs. They're easygoing. They have high medical and upkeep maintenance costs, but very low day-to-day costs. They're suitable for families with small children or other pets. They're grateful for play time when it's available, but not harmed by p…

Isn't that a bit of a misrepresentation of the problem though? The genetic problems that bulldogs exhibit aren't results of the traits you mention, but of conformance to a breed standard and the trends of a very small minority of bulldog owners (those that show them). Unfortunately, that small minority drives the cost of bulldogs and thus drives the breeders. If the bulldog standard was revised to a healthier expecta…

How do you mean? When you say "misrepresentation."

All breeders (in theory) are breeding to the "breed standard," which means if the standard says to breed unhealthy dogs then that's what they do. Because of the existence of the standard in its current state, even 'pet owners' (rather than dog showers/breeders) will be forced to buy dogs that are unhealthy. It is by design. This is precisely why it must be changed.

I am of course referring to the English Bulldog when I say "all" (this variety is overwhelmingly unhealthy) whereas the American variety seems to be significantly better off.

So - YES, we should change the standard to focus on health. But - NO, breeders are not "the minority." Not all breeders show their dogs, not all handlers breed the dogs they show, but because they are the ones doing the breeding, the responsibility begins with them.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#250
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the Whitehouse and a lot of security companies are switching to the slightly smaller Belgian Malinoise: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/09/2...

And because of that, many pet owners now want Malinois* instead of Shepherds...because they saw one on TV and it looked super obedient and they think, well if the police are using them, it's probably just what I need to complete my apartment..! You'll see the same problems in Malinois in - my guess - 3-5 years from now. Let a couple generations go by. Keep an eye out for phrases like "old world" and "large-boned" whe…

Well they've been used as service dogs in place of german shephards for > 10 years. Not sure why you picked 3-5 years arbitrarily. They're bred for their actual talent as working dogs (and holy hell are they fast!).
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