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An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

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Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#241

Post by andymurd »

jeffbr13 wrote: post #146
pjc50 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ambiguous IP clause is very common in UK programmer employment contracts. I've had two experiences with it. Most recently, I was able to insert a clarifying clause that said "work not related to company's business and not done on company time/equipment doesn't count". Previously, I was working at a startup that didn't have this clause and employed a number of people who were Debian developers in their spare time.…

Please correct me if my layperson's interpretation is wrong, but that IP clause is one of the few things I don't worry about in UK employment contracts. When I first came across the phrase "during the course of employment"[1] that they invariably use and researched it, I got the impression that it seems to have specific legal meaning of when you'd reasonably be considered to be 'working for' the company. At the place…

When I was working in the UK, I negotiated to change an IP clause from "during the period of employment" to "during the course of employment" for precisely the reason that you state.

Both parties were happy with the change.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#243

Post by baseh »

From their website (homepage):

> Gigster is a smart software development service, combining top developers and designers with artificial intelligence.

Am I the only one who does not understand what that even means?

Do they bring together matching developers and designers using their artificial intelligent algorithms or the developers and designers they hire have artificial intelligence?

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#244

Post by 7402 »

ryandrake wrote: post #94
ransom1538 wrote: post #72

I get the whole 'this isn't fair argument.' But these contracts impact peoples livelihood so I will attempt to help. First, don't respond to HR with a complex set of legal questions. They wont know the answer and will push back -- corporate attorneys will charge astronomical amounts and these questions could even get the board involved -- which the CEO usually doesn't want to do. My suggestions: 1) The strike: Print…

I've actually tried that cute "Strike out clauses from your employment agreement you don't like and sign THAT document" tactic with several past employers, and each of them pulled me aside my first or second day of work and gave me a stern and clear "Sign it unmodified or GTFO" talk. In my experience nothing in an employment contract is in any way negotiable. I don't even bother anymore--it's futile.

In my experience employment contracts are negotiable if and only if the negotiations are carried out BEFORE accepting the job.

Before responding to an offer, I've found it important to ask, "Please also send me a copy of the employee handbook and any employment agreements or other documents that I will be expected to sign on the first day of work."

I've done this ever since the time I quit one job, started another and then on the first day was presented with an HR packet full of "standard" forms to be signed.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#245

Post by LanceH »

bsharitt wrote: post #86
gurgus wrote: post #11

That classic "well, nobody else has had a problem, so you must be the problem" response. I remember at one of my first jobs, myself and another programmer were working on a side project (outside of work hours, not using company resources in any way) that were considering monetising. Our contracts stated that the company we worked for owned all of our code produced in and out of working hours. We got to the business e…

I was considering taking a job recently(would have been 100% remote) that had the same kind of vague "everything you do is ours" clause(also had a similarly vague non-compete) in the contract when I received the job offer. I brought it up and mentioned I can't sign this contract because these issues. The most I could get out of the guy was, I can't think of it every getting forced so sign the contract and don't worry…

I hate the "it doesn't really matter, so do it our way argument."

If anyone says it doesn't matter, we'll be doing it my way. Scratch it out, sign the changes and submit it back to them. Remind them they don't care about enforcing it anyway.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#246

Post by ilaksh »

levlandau wrote: post #145

Cofounder here. Really appreciate the discussion and all of the feedback. The spirit of the contract's never been intended to be unreasonably restrictive -- though I totally understand the concern. We wanted to include certain terms since as part of our model, we do own the code written specifically for Gigster projects. We certainly don't want to own code folks write outside of Gigster projects. We've received very…

It says

    > does not contain any third-party software, including without limitation, “open source,” “copy left,” “public” or other similar code or anything derived from or based on any of the foregoing
which absolutely, _obviously_ means you _do_ want to own or exclude code folks write outside of Gigster projects, since it says it can't contain open source code or be derived from or based on open source code. This is ludicrous -- almost every modern hardware or software product contains or is based on some open source or public code, including Macs (BSD code or BSD-derived code at core) all Android phones (all Android operating systems include and/or derived from open-source Android software), almost all web sites (based on/contains/derived from open source software like Wordpress etc.)

So, since you left that clause in there, you either fundamentally do not understand how modern software is built, or you do, and you thought that it was OK to pretend that it doesn't work that way and maybe somehow you could hold the developers responsible for the 'misunderstanding' if anyone called you on it.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#247

Post by jack9 »

ex_amazon_sde wrote: post #57
therealmarv wrote: post #6

I recently learned from a github discussion that if you work for Amazon, Google etc. you are also not allowed to work on any open source projects, even on your free time without their permission.

Ex Amazon employee here: Amazon requires employees to obtain written permission even to contribute in your free time and this makes many developers unhappy. However the company does not claim copyright or patents on work-unrelated ideas and (closed-source) projects.

> Amazon requires employees to obtain written permission even to contribute in your free time

I would never agree to this. Generally, if you work at a place that commonly throws around the phrase " is in breach of contract which is grounds for termination.", you're in a bad job that will not ever teach you anything or advance your career. You are working as a glorified contractor and should learn some warning flags to avoid the terrible corporate bus stops.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#248

Post by blister »

danielweber wrote: post #184
blister wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either they're bluffing completely or you're extremely junior. We often spend $10k-$30k on each new hire. If you make it through that pipeline and they try to strong-arm you on the first day... they're going to have a rough time.

Maybe they are bluffing, maybe they are not. If you are willing to lose your job, I applaud anyone who does this fight. But lots of people are not able to do the same fight. What does work is demanding to see the employment contract before joining the company. They can present you with a different contract on day one, but contract law requires a meeting of minds, and if they snuck a new clause in without calling it o…

Don't look for jobs when you're desperate. Look for jobs while you're happy and comfortable in your current position.

It's like investing. Don't buy while the market is going up. Buy after a crash. Buy when the deck is stacked in your favor.

I (mostly) only ever actively look for positions when I'm comfortable in my current position. If a new employer really wants me, they'll bend over backwards to get me. I recommend everyone do the same.

Sometimes you may not have that leverage. In those situations, absolutely take whatever job you have to take to keep your house and keep the electricity flowing. But don't stop looking for a better job.

You are literally the only person on the planet that is going to look out for your best interests. The difference beteween a 100,000 and a 110,000 salary over 30 years is freaking $300,000 (not even counting for investment potential). Maximize your career for yourself.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#249

Post by ABCLAW »

logfromblammo wrote: post #220
ABCLAW wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, this advice is tremendously dangerous. The existence of a helpful theory of the case does not provide you with the protections you seem to believe it does.

With respect, it was not advice, as I am not a lawyer. It is my opinion. If the entire legal profession chooses to hold a different opinion, and enforces it upon one another via their cartel, that is their prerogative. It will not affect my opinions upon what I would consider to be fair or just . Sharing my opinion may well put you on the losing side of a lawsuit, but I don't judge my value as a person according to m…

I doubt you have ill intentions in mind. The idea that one's personal conception of 'fair' and 'just' is sufficient to espouse how the justice system should work is common, but often misleading, as it is in this case.

Your statement on consideration, for instance, is incorrect. As is the leading statement in the post I replied to. Neither of those were constructed as statements of opinion.

In any event, I hope that readers recognize that there is a lot of misinformation in this thread and seek out proper experienced counsel to provide accurate answers to their questions.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#250

Post by xiaoma »

After seeing this, I have zero respect for gigster or anyone who empowers this behavior.

They're asking for unilateral power to end the software career of any of their contractors, even decades into the future. Worse still, the demand their contractors to sign away any legal right to recourse... And in exchange they offer mediocre contracting work.

Screw those guys.

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