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No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

theguardian.com

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Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#241
post #67
post #13

My partner became involved in Montessori a few years ago, and I've been really impressed with how it works. If you don't know much about Montessori, here is my "in a nutshell" version: It's a method of schooling usually associated with preschool and elementary education. There are mixed age groups (e.g. 3 to 6) in classrooms. There is at least one adult who gives one-on-one lessons on how to work with "materials." Th…

Alternate pedagogies (Montessori, Waldorf, etc.) seem to work quite well for early childhood education, but I'm very skeptical of them for middle school, and especially high school (what Montessori defines as "3rd stage"). The reason for this is that extremely few people I've met who went to such high schools came out of them with levels in science/math that could be reasonably qualified as decent (and often borderli…

extremely few people I've met who went to such high schools came out of them with levels in science/math that could be reasonably qualified as decent

Hi, nice to know you. Montessori-educated until University here. Even in high school, it's all about the learning material: as long as the teachers were skilled enough to make me interested in the subject, there was hardly any limit to what I could take in. I left school with high marks across the board, with five languages and all STEM subjects except biology (because I hated the learning material with a passion).

That said, my parents encouraged the same at home so it's not just my school: I wrote my first BASIC program with my father when I was nine, and there was a surplus of construction toys (Lego, Mecano, electric science kits) at home as well.

(edit: I'm not familiar with official "Montessori" policy on high schools, but I want to add that our school roster was partly free: we had a number of mandatory class hours for each subject, but were expected to spend more time in school than just our roster: all teachers had "open hours", which you could use to get additional mentoring from the teacher, peers or sometimes senior year students)

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the sheep is fucked. But at least they have a shot at trying to defend themselves. Note that I'm assuming that it goes without saying that armed defense is a measure of last resort. Obviously one would try diplomacy, etc., first. But my point is that "democracy" isn't any kind of inherently perfect system if you're the minority party. It has pathological edge cases that can't just be hand-waved around.

I think all forms of government and/or social codes are just temporary and perforated stopgaps on the way to the actual solution: a post-scarcity world, where everybody can just get whatever they want and nobody needs to infringe on anybody, baring psychological defects.

Agreed. I just wonder if we'll ever actually be able to achieve a complete post-scarcity world. I'm optimistic, but not completely so.

There's also a question of whether there is such a thing as "basic human nature" at play. As long as we are driven to compete with each other for access to the most desirable mates, etc., it seems there might always be some cause for humans to attempt to stomp on one another in various ways. Even if there was no shortage of material goods, food, water, etc., I suspect we'd still find some kind of basis to compete on, which could still lead to conflict.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing calculus and linear algebra has been of about as much use to me as my knowledge of history; none bar intellectual satisfaction. I feel the same way about people who force their interests and prejudices on others even when I share those prejudices. Those people are st best obnoxious. I derived neither enjoyment nor any discernible benefit from having to do P.E. in school. I am not in favour of forcing Math or…

You want to let a 10 year old decide for themselves whether or not they'll want to do any branch of science/Engineering that relies on mathematics at university level? This is not about forcing an interest, this is about shaping opportunity. The ideal of school is to have provided a well rounded education such that the individual at 16 or 18 can start to make informed decisions about their life. I get that calculus i…

"The ideal of school is to have provided a well rounded education such that the individual at 16 or 18 can start to make informed decisions about their life"

Right on, for example, phys ed. In my school, we had a wide variety of activities over the years. Almost like: here are some physical activities, hope you find one you like so that you can enjoy being healthy.

"History? Should have been teaching you about sources. Bias. Propaganda. Analysis. Argument"

Wow, I always criticize the way history is taught by bringing up Christopher Columbus. They focus on the names of the boats, not the fact that the majority of people, including the leaders of his country, thought he would fall off the world. You brought up an interesting point.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#244
post #179
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on Earth would there be a correlation between music proficiency and maths? Math involves no musical skill, and music only involves mathematics because mathematics is abstract enough to apply to literally every human discipline. Music is probably one of the places where math is used the least.

Lots of genres involve math compositionally, and some for performance - mathrock, jazz, some classical compositions, even pop music, it's definitely necessary to properly comprehend a piece. Let alone if you're going to try anything with polyrhythms, tackle anything beyond basic harmonic theory, or have an interest in understanding the physics behind sound..

[deleted]

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#245
post #179
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on Earth would there be a correlation between music proficiency and maths? Math involves no musical skill, and music only involves mathematics because mathematics is abstract enough to apply to literally every human discipline. Music is probably one of the places where math is used the least.

Lots of genres involve math compositionally, and some for performance - mathrock, jazz, some classical compositions, even pop music, it's definitely necessary to properly comprehend a piece. Let alone if you're going to try anything with polyrhythms, tackle anything beyond basic harmonic theory, or have an interest in understanding the physics behind sound..

Those are some vague claims that I don't see any evidence for. I have not seen any part of music theory that requires anything more than basic fractions, and the vast majority of music that people write doesn't even require much of that.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#246
post #49

Sudbury Valley Schools are the gold standard as far as I can tell from my research. (I spent a number of years as an education/students rights activist; built and ran the country's most famous education blog back in 2009; and have otherwise been doing advocacy work for a couple decades) They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens who understand how to share limited resources and…

This is really cool. It reminds me of what happened to me when I turned 15 and my family was first able to afford a computer and an internet connection. I basically started teaching myself all kinds of stuff (e.g., physics, mathematics, philosophy, etc.). Self-directed learning can take you really far, but it isn't right for everyone: mostly individuals who can truly direct themselves and have the kinds of interests…

> Self-directed learning can take you really far, but it isn't right for everyone

I'd like to have this hypothesis tested. The popular school system is a formula for destroying children's interests (by turning learning into mandated work), corrupting intrinsic motivation (by rewarding obedience) and replacing learning (as in discovering and understanding) with memorizing facts, procedures and rules.

It's a bit unfair to blame someone who's been force fed against their will, at times when they weren't hungry, food they didn't like, in a humiliating manner ... It's unfair to blame such a person for lack of appetite.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#247
post #49

Sudbury Valley Schools are the gold standard as far as I can tell from my research. (I spent a number of years as an education/students rights activist; built and ran the country's most famous education blog back in 2009; and have otherwise been doing advocacy work for a couple decades) They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens who understand how to share limited resources and…

This is really cool. It reminds me of what happened to me when I turned 15 and my family was first able to afford a computer and an internet connection. I basically started teaching myself all kinds of stuff (e.g., physics, mathematics, philosophy, etc.). Self-directed learning can take you really far, but it isn't right for everyone: mostly individuals who can truly direct themselves and have the kinds of interests…

> Self-directed learning can take you really far, but it isn't right for everyone

I'd like to have this hypothesis tested. The popular school system is a formula for destroying children's interests (by turning learning into mandated work), corrupting intrinsic motivation (by rewarding obedience) and replacing learning (as in discovering and understanding) with memorizing facts, procedures and rules.

It's a bit unfair to blame someone who's been force fed against their will, at times when they weren't hungry, food they didn't like, in a humiliating manner ... It's unfair to blame such a person for lack of appetite.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#248
post #49

Sudbury Valley Schools are the gold standard as far as I can tell from my research. (I spent a number of years as an education/students rights activist; built and ran the country's most famous education blog back in 2009; and have otherwise been doing advocacy work for a couple decades) They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens who understand how to share limited resources and…

This is really cool. It reminds me of what happened to me when I turned 15 and my family was first able to afford a computer and an internet connection. I basically started teaching myself all kinds of stuff (e.g., physics, mathematics, philosophy, etc.). Self-directed learning can take you really far, but it isn't right for everyone: mostly individuals who can truly direct themselves and have the kinds of interests…

[deleted]

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#249
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That also sounds like your typical, "genius" who excels at one thing, but finds frustration in other subjects that aren't as easy to pick up. Still. You would think that there would be a correlation between music proficiency and maths. "Because I absolutely had to", is a pretty good motivator. I've lost a lot in life, and had little support: "Why did you start a business at 20?" "Because I absolutely had to."

Why on Earth would there be a correlation between music proficiency and maths? Math involves no musical skill, and music only involves mathematics because mathematics is abstract enough to apply to literally every human discipline. Music is probably one of the places where math is used the least.

> Music is probably one of the places where math is used the least.

As a musician, I disagree with this rather strongly. Math underpins music in pretty much every aspect. Even a beginner musician will end up needing to know basic fractional arithmetic (since note lengths are represented as fractions or multiples of a "beat" length, and said "beat" is in turn usually notated as a fraction of a minute). So if you can read music even at a basic level, you're using math constantly, even if it's notated using dots and stems instead of (or in addition to) numbers.

This isn't even going into some more advanced topics of music theory, like the wavelength ratios between notes in a scale/chord, the difference between "just" and "tempered" tuning, how resonance works and why some notes on some instruments resonate differently than other notes on other instruments, etc.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really cool. It reminds me of what happened to me when I turned 15 and my family was first able to afford a computer and an internet connection. I basically started teaching myself all kinds of stuff (e.g., physics, mathematics, philosophy, etc.). Self-directed learning can take you really far, but it isn't right for everyone: mostly individuals who can truly direct themselves and have the kinds of interests…

> Self-directed learning can take you really far, but it isn't right for everyone: mostly individuals who can truly direct themselves and have the kinds of interests that are condusive to broad understanding and knowledge. I agree with the sentiment here, but I wonder if it wouldn't be more accurate to say it would be for everyone, except that some people have already had their natural driven curiosity ground out of…

>some people have already had their natural driven curiosity ground out of them by sour experiences at school or poor home life prior to getting the change to try this.

Somehow I find that extraordinarily unlikely, but I suppose it is possible. From my experience and what I've seen in other people, it's never that the curiosity in them gets pounded out of them, rather it is that they're not ideally granted the opportunities to capitalize on their curiosities.

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