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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

nytimes.com

241–247 of 247 posts

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#241
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many would argue his primary concern is Erdogan's interests in the short term. Former dictators who censored speech don't generally have happy post-political careers. I wouldn't imagine trying to put a strangle hold on a whole country's speech is exactly stress free either. Whether he is planning for the short term or for his whole life, Erdogan isn't so bright as @gkya would have you believe. He certainly doesn't…

Ergo, Erdogan isn't bright. No one - least of all @gkya - is saying he is bright. They are saying his actions aren't stupid. Former dictators who censored speech don't generally have happy post-political careers. Plenty have died in office while still holding power, too. Most of Turkey's immediate neighbors have had dictators who died while in power.

Ug, this is so pedantic. What I meant was he is stupid, I was just trying to sound nicer. Anyway, no worries if you disagree. I don't think remaining in power for life is as stress free and happy as you imply. I imagine those who seek such control don't realize this until they've cornered themselves into an intractable position. If you give up control as a dictator, there's no guarantee you're set or even safe for life. I'm sure that is concerning to realize that when you've surrounded yourself with forced fake friends, they might not have your back when you don't provide anything for them anymore.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#242
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism in Germany is not the same as racism in the US or necessarily other parts of the EU. "Südländer" ("people from Southern countries") are effectively treated as an ethnic group, although this includes Italians and Spaniards alongside Turks (but in some cases also Arabs and other non-"whites"). There's also the racist slur "Ölauge" ("oil-eye"), which while ostensibly about eye colour is typically used to refer to…

US racism used to be more variegated like this, but more and more ethnicities got folded into "whiteness" over time (and along with the rise in the fear of blackness.) White by Law: The Legal Construction of Race by Ian Haney Lopez covers the legal history of whiteness in the US.

That's not entirely what I was referring to, though. The race construct (for an example with horrible consequences look up the history of the ethnic tensions that let to the Rwanda genocide) seems to be largely based on colonialism.

German racism tends to be based largely on anti-immigrant nationalism and xenophobia. It's closer to American racism towards Latinas/-os (and people who fall in the same mental category) than to American racism towards black people.

But maybe we do have the kind of racism black people experience in the US and we're just culturally less aware of it because our ethnic demographics are different.

Without delving too deeply into armchair sociology I think that two major events defining our biases are 1) the attitude towards (predominantly Turkish) immigrants in the third quarter of the last century and 2) the immigration of Russian Germans after WW2.

The Turkish immigrants were greeted as "guest workers" during the post-war boom of our economy and at the time largely filled the kind of badly paid low prestige jobs that became available en masse as our industry grew. Because we only considered them temporary we never acknowledged them as German and were utterly surprised that they would decide to stay and live in "our" country.

The "German Russians", as I described earlier, were (for the most part) ethnically and culturally German settlers who had of course culturally diverged over the course of a century or so before they migrated back to Germany in the aftermath of WW2 and the post-war tensions between Russia and Germany. They were Germans to the Russians but Russians to the Germans they came home to.

All in all it's a huge mess based on a decades long attitude to immigration that could be at best described as sticking your head in the sand and hoping the migrants just go away again rather than adapting them into our culture or even allowing each other to influence each others' cultures to find a common ground.

But looking at the poverty-stricken immigrant districts around Paris and Brussels I guess we didn't do that badly. Though that relief likely won't help anyone looking even remotely foreign if our ethno-nationalism gets any stronger (for a nightmarish outlook consider the recent election results of the AfD, the German nationalist party).

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#243
post #198
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rotterdam is actually the largest Dutch city, though second in rank (Amsterdam is the capital, but it's smaller than Rotterdam).

The ironic part of Netherlands or France is that they had been major colonial players, and in the case of France, are now not accepting people from places that were made to be part of the French Empire as real French is baffling on first sight. But then again people from Bretagne distance themselves from those in Paris, and let's not mention Corsica :-). The only way to counter all of it are cold hard scientific trut…

The integration of Indonesians in Holland seems to have gone pretty well. Could there be any kind of similarity there?

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#244
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I have political discourse with people the aspect that makes me the most irritable is the implication that it's simple. Politicians are corrupt, stupid, or both - and if they'd just do "x" everything would be better. Even when politicians do the right things (get a panel of experts to write a detailed report, and then try to act on the findings) - headlines contain only the barest hint of the depth of the analys…

Trump makes it sound so simple.

It only because he hasn't governed yet. Wait until, say, a year after he has become president, and made some mistakes he had to pay for ...

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#245
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rotterdam is actually the largest Dutch city, though second in rank (Amsterdam is the capital, but it's smaller than Rotterdam).

Wikipedia numbers: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam : 834.119 inhabitants https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam : 630.383 inhabitants Maybe you are confused with The Hague, which is smaller than both, but the seat of the parliament and government? (Or perhaps you are looking at the surface area, which is not really interesting in this context.)

Well whaddya know. I was actually thinking of the city agglomerate, FAFAIK the metropolitan area of Rotterdam breached 1M population before Amsterdam did. But I really haven't kept up with the last ten years of city developments.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#246
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "race" of Europe, if you could categorize it into such broad terms, would be better suited as "Western", "Eastern", and "Mediterranean", but even that isn't apt. For most Turks, you couldn't tell the difference between them and Iranians, IMO. Nonetheless, you can definitely tell them apart from a Western white European, a Eastern Slavic-Rus European, and a Mediterranean European.

Plenty of Greeks, southern Italians and Spaniards are darker than e.g. Erdogan (I don't really know many Turks, he's just an example from TV).

(Sorry if I am reading too deep into this) There are Mediterranean Greeks, Italian, and Spainards, and there are "White" Greeks, Italian, and Spaniards.

(Pardon the invocation of Godwin's law here) When Hitler envisioned his Aryan race, a source of influence was the classical "Athenian Greek." (Another random tidbit, as the story goes, he had such respect for the Greeks, it was with great reluctance that he invaded /greekpride ) Many Greeks still have Blonde hair, blue eyes, and hardly any hair, like my mother and her side of the family. Compare that to my father, who is from an island in Greece, we are basically darker than most Arabs you meet (and indeed thats how I came out. I am more easily passed as an Arab, specifically an Egyptian at times)

(To continue on my random tirade, sorry) If you basically draw an oval around the Mediterranean, from the Greek Islands, Sicily, to parts of Morroco, and such, you could basically pick a few people at random and we would all look related like brothers or cousins to most Americans.

And yes I am one of those crazy people who advocates Mediterranean as a different race than "White." All my life filling out forms, and applications, and throughout schooling, I had to mark down "White" and feel as if I was fraudulent. I am not sure what exactly the US uses as its criteria for a "race" but we are as different from a Anglo-Saxon, Western European type as Native Americans are. We have our distinct features (usually big noses, pronounced foreheads, and lots of hair!), share common values, and even have our own diseases!(see Mediterranean blood disease)

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "race" of Europe, if you could categorize it into such broad terms, would be better suited as "Western", "Eastern", and "Mediterranean", but even that isn't apt. For most Turks, you couldn't tell the difference between them and Iranians, IMO. Nonetheless, you can definitely tell them apart from a Western white European, a Eastern Slavic-Rus European, and a Mediterranean European.

Permit this Iranian born to disagree. Turks are generally paler, and have hard eyes. Armenians, due to historic ties going back thousands of years, look far more Iranian.

Duly noted.
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