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On asking job candidates to code

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Re: On asking job candidates to code

#241

Post by vkjv »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #236
vkjv wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of quick notes: * If you don't provide a link to your github profile, I'm not supposed to look at it. This an HR requirement. Other companies may use this same policy. * I definitely look at github, but it's not always easy to tell if a project is original or not. Quite often I'm presented with either 30 forks, or a few projects that seem like they started as some boilerplate. * Don't just provide github, al…

It's really, really easy to tell what contributions were made to a project by the person whose profile you're looking at. There's literally a "contributors" section where you can click on them and see every commit they ever made to that project. Also, asking someone to code in front of you is a terrible way to figure out what it would be like to work with them. 1) It's an artificial non-cooperative environment. 2) It…

I over simplified to make a simple bullet list. This is not a "code in front of my while I sit in silence" kind of thing. It's collaborative, it's discussing requirements, strategies, etc. It's back and forth and suggestions. It's also open Internet and questions are encouraged.

FWIW, we follow-up on what candidates thought of the interview process and it is overwhelmingly positive. I don't think it is overly stressful. Although, I'm not sure it's possible to make an interview not stressful at all! :)

EDIT: It's simple if you think of it in terms of a single project. But, if you think of it in terms of many, most of which are no contribution or a small bug fix, it can represent a large time investment. That's why I recommend candidates point out a specific piece of code.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#242

Post by im_down_w_otp »

estefan wrote: post #233
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have tried hiring. Many times. As recently as yesterday. Using a combination of (semi-)rigorous personality profiling (time constrained), and mapping the abstract problem domain of their prior work to the problems I actually have for them to work on, it's been possible to align new people with the work such that they're intrinsically motivated, and make sure all the bases are covered for the necessary roles (hacker…

Who mentioned riddles and puzzles?

I lump them all together. There's barely a neurological distinction between engagement in a riddle/puzzle and a programming challenge.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#243

Post by baoha »

jcadam wrote: post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

One trick I often use these days is using these run-by-20-something companies as practice places before I meet the one that I really like to work for. So when it comes to the time I consider to move one, just say "Yes" to all incoming LinkedIn invitation. It worked well 2 times for me already for the last 5 years.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#244

Post by vkjv »

enraged_camel wrote: post #240
vkjv wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of quick notes: * If you don't provide a link to your github profile, I'm not supposed to look at it. This an HR requirement. Other companies may use this same policy. * I definitely look at github, but it's not always easy to tell if a project is original or not. Quite often I'm presented with either 30 forks, or a few projects that seem like they started as some boilerplate. * Don't just provide github, al…

>>* If you don't provide a link to your github profile, I'm not allowed to look at it. This an HR requirement. Other companies may use this same policy. First time I'm hearing about such a policy. Can you explain the reasoning?

I don't know the specific reasoning behind it. It's not specific to github. We aren't supposed to look at any reference that isn't provided by the candidate. This includes linkedin, facebook, etc.

It's most likely an overly broad means of protecting against employment discrimination.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#245

Post by spike021 »

dominotw wrote: post #215
ryandrake wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often the "information sideband" is the very fact that the company decided to cut off all communication as a way to convey rejection. If they treat random people that way, how do you think they treat people who are obligated to be on their worksite every day? Companies: DON'T DO THIS! I, for one, actively discourage smart friends from interviewing at places that treat candidates like shit.

I had nightmare of a interview experience with AirBnb in 2012. They asked me take 2 days off from work and fly all the way to SFO after I wasted couple of hours doing their coding homework. The first interviewer started with "your degree is not from a good school" like the very first sentence right to my face. He then asked me a string matching question, and insisted that I code up his brute force solution (with terr…

Nowadays, at least for their engineering internships, they have a pre-filled list of top schools to choose from followed by an "other" option (at least when I tried applying a couple years ago).

That told me exactly what I needed to know. I'd be instantly rejected because of not going to a "good school".

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#246

Post by jasode »

jameshart wrote: post #203
jasode wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> filter down from a large number ... to a small number ... doesn't say anything about how selective they are. But that's what the definition of "selectivity" is for database retrieval. Selectivity == n_rows_selected/n_row_count. The " larger number " was the denominator and the " small number " was the numerator. Your example SQL is not consistent with your previous sentence: SELECT TOP 1000 FROM resumes ORDER BY re…

The denominator has no relevance to how selective your hiring process is. Your process does not become more exacting and precise simply because you received more applicants.

>denominator has no relevance to how selective

Thank you for confirming that you were using the colloquial version of "selectivity" which doesn't require knowing the denominator instead of mathematical "selectivity" which does.

You're using "selective" like this definition: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selective

I was using "selective" like this: http://www.programmerinterview.com/index.php/database-sql/ca...

The following wiki page ranks college selectivity and it absolutely requires the denominator to do so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankings_of_universities_in_th...

That wiki page orders the ranking on mathematical selectivity and not colloquial selectivity. My previous comment of Google Inc being more "selective" than Harvard is to be interpreted as mathematical selectivity. Sorry for not stating it more explicitly to prevent confusion.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#247

Post by hibikir »

jasode wrote: post #85
patio11 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Speaking in personal capacity here.) There exists a continuum of hiring practices which place more or less burden upon candidates. I would encourage HNers with input into their company hiring practices to choose less burdensome approaches over more burdensome approaches, particularly when less burdensome approaches also yield additional signal about ability. A thing you can expect to be asked in 2016: you can expect…

>For some candidates, this will involve more than 16 hours on planes, a (minimally) overnight stay in a business hotel, and six solid hours of interviews in the course of an 8~10 hour day. This requires minimally 2~3 days of these candidates' lives. ... To put it mildly: it is not guaranteed that if you're flown out you will get an offer. ..., and you replace the onsite with even an excessively long project, that's a…

When many valley companies look for senior people (and they do), they still use the same mechanisms to hire those 30 somethings out of consulting firms. And that's when they have a 1/4 on site to offer ratio(es, that's an actual ratio of senior engineers that pass the phone screening.

In one case I know, the interviewing + travel took two work days and two nights. That's thousands of dollars for a consultant! Add to that the grand or so of travel expenses for the company, interviewer time and overall, every senior hire costs applicants + company well over ten thousand dollars, past paying the recruiting team.

Compare that to a company that does the whole process over Hangouts/ScreenHero. The waste is amazing.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#248

Post by spitfire »

Kluny wrote: post #189
rcurry wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I never heard from them again and all of my attempts at communication were ignored." Unfortunately, this seems to be par for the course these days - I have a lot of friends who complain about the same thing. It's just indicative of a total lack of professional courtesy, and you should consider yourself lucky that you didn't end up working with people like that.

Lucky, sure, but I wish there were some kind of consequences for behaving that way. Seems like there's no incentive to act professionally and businesses know they can get away with it, so "ghosting" is now standard business practice.

Name them and shame them. Spread the news within your network.

Keep a record of the behaviour - they are burnt for the rest of time.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#249

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ryandrake wrote: post #132
tetraodonpuffer wrote: post #87

not sure why there is so much resistance here about doing an 8 hour test, I might be in the minority but for a traditional whiteboard interview I would spend a lot more than 8 hours revising algorithms and so on, and have a lot of stress due to whiteboard coding not being anything like real coding. Being able to take a Sunday to work on a challenging problem in my own editor / computer / dev environment sounds great!…

> not sure why there is so much resistance here about doing an 8 hour test If you're applying to just 5 companies, that's a full (well 40-hour) work week of effort for a small chance of going forward with the next stage of the interview/hazing ritual. Might be good if you are already unemployed, but incompatible with candidates who already work.

Which means that, if you're hiring, and you want only candidates who are currently unemployed, it's a reasonable practice. But the best candidates probably already have jobs, and you're not going to get them. So maybe that's not really the way you want to do things...

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#250

Post by 8_hours_ago »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #227

Watch the recent coreos post/video, the CTO is probably a smart and nice guy but he looks about 16.

That is not a very nice thing to say. Some people look much younger than they are (as Brandon does).

I guess I should be grateful that I look older than I am because of my rapidly receding hairline.

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