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We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

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Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#241
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As stated several times over the years, particularly on HN and by patio11 (edit: or was it Joel on Software? Perhaps both?), work for a profit center not a cost center. The internal software to run insurance companies is a cost center. It is in managements interest to reduce and keep costs down... that's detrimental to what you do. Working on a software product or Saas is a profit center. What you are making is to be…

In addition to my previous comment, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the "consulting" gig. It seems to rule here. You know the routine. Consulting shop places an individual at a client site and charges the client $100 an hour, and then turns around and gives the consultant less than half of it. I can see the argument of the consulting firm viewing their people both as profit centers and cost centers. Why are the…

Honestly, there's a lot of confusion (and overloading, to use OOP parlance) with the term "contractor", and confusion with the term "consultant".

For instance, you can be a "contractor" as a software engineer, where you sign an employment contract to work for 6 or 12 months at a client site, working through an employment agency. At the end of that term, either your contract is renewed or it is not and you're now unemployed.

Or, in the defense industry, you can work as a "contractor" where you're a full-time employee of some company (called a "defense contractor"). That company signs a contract with the government to do some work for them somehow, and you're assigned to do this work. Your work does not have a defined end date (like the 6-month contract you might get to work at some big commercial company), you're just a regular full-time employee, but you still have to track your time (so it can be billed to that government contract), and if something goes wrong with the contract (like it runs out of money), then you can suddenly, with little warning, be furloughed without any pay.

Of course, there's many other kinds of "contractors" too, like the guy you hire to replace your house's roof. And there's all the people who are full-time workers, but are given 1099 forms as classified as "independent contractors" so their employer doesn't have to pay FICA and unemployment insurance for them.

Now, as for "consultants", that usually seems to be pretty much what I described in the part about defense contracting: you're a regular W-2 employee of some corporation, but you're sent out to client sites to do work for them, though there's no fixed-term contract with the client usually.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#242
post #33

Also: Give the "not-the-best" people a chance to develop. The CEO of one of my past clients, a consulting company, always said: "You can teach everyone to be a great programmer". And he put his money where his mouth was: He hired people with no programming experience (even with no university education) and personally trained them for several months . Also, senior people in the company were encouraged to also help the…

"You can teach everyone to be a great programmer" Flat out dead wrong. If you hire "anyone" and try to teach them to be a programmer then you will probably fire them. This is the sort of attitude that leads companies to outsource their development overseas: "Our programmers are people hitting keys. We'll get overseas people to hit keys and overseas people hit keys for less money.", cause, you know, anyone can do it.…

"Everyone" here I think means the same as "anyone can be a great cook" in Ratatuille - it does not mean that anyone can learn to cook - but that a good programmer can arise from any background.

My experience would support this. You need a mindset keen towards rigor, and motivation. Given those, and guidance, anyone can learn to program - at least in limited contexts.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried the midwest large insurance company job, and it was not a fun experience. I often had full weeks where I was waiting on something from other slow-moving departments and had literally nothing to do, and my boss knew and didn't really care, although I still had to show up and sit in my desk for eight hours a day. And I was a developer but had to ask permission and make a case for every single program I wanted t…

> The atmosphere was also the most subdued environment I've ever been in. Most people not talking to or acknowledging each other unless their cubes were near, very few jokes, I almost got the feeling I'd get in trouble if I ever showed exuberance. I know exactly what you mean! It is suffocating! Currently struggling with this right now. I can't stand it because it just feels so fake and phony. To me work is easier an…

It's not necessarily being phony. It's just being dead inside.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#244
"Only hiring the best" can paradoxically lower the average quality of the candidate you end up hiring, anyways. Suppose there's two ways for someone to pass a strict interview: they're either a good programmer, or they're good at bullshitting you. With a higher bar, you're giving bullshitters more opportunities to bullshit you.

From the perspective of a subordinate doing hiring, raising the bar makes perfect sense. You don't want to get blamed for a risky hire going bad, so you optimize for making your choice defensible rather than good. Non-hiring is also risky - it's just risky in a way that damages the company rather than the person doing the hiring.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#245
post #33

Also: Give the "not-the-best" people a chance to develop. The CEO of one of my past clients, a consulting company, always said: "You can teach everyone to be a great programmer". And he put his money where his mouth was: He hired people with no programming experience (even with no university education) and personally trained them for several months . Also, senior people in the company were encouraged to also help the…

I always think of Michael Lewis' Moneyball story when I read such things. When everybody else is scouting for 200k players, why not pick promising fresh graduates? You might have to spend more time mentoring, but you get extra cash to lengthen your runway.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#246

This fear of not hiring the very best explains why everyone in the Valley seems to be interviewing candidates like crazy but nobody is hiring. When I interview I try to tease out potential, and look for signals that show the candidate will work hard and learn fast. Then someone comes in and says, "Well I hazed him and he couldn't implement a red-black tree on a whiteboard. No hire." This mad pickiness causes the myth…

This kinda reminds me of dating in your late 30s or 40s.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#248
post #20

tl;dr: The only measure of on the job performance is on the job performance. The only thing that matters to your company is also on the job performance. Why not focus on that? It is utter voodoo. I came up in the late 80s. Interviews were maybe 2 hours long. You might be handed a piece of paper with a problem to aggregate some information distributed in a few different arrays and print them out. You know, write some…

Couldn't agree more. The "innovations" SV has brought to the interview process are more to satisfy the need to "disrupt" the traditional way of interviewing, with no thought to whether they're actually improvements. Take-home tests that are 8 hours long, talking to 14 people over 12 hours (actually happened to me), and tricky questions that will never happen in the day-to-day at that company: all useless and/or unfair.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#249
post #20

tl;dr: The only measure of on the job performance is on the job performance. The only thing that matters to your company is also on the job performance. Why not focus on that? It is utter voodoo. I came up in the late 80s. Interviews were maybe 2 hours long. You might be handed a piece of paper with a problem to aggregate some information distributed in a few different arrays and print them out. You know, write some…

"Never memorize what you can look up in a book" --Einstein

Wikiquote says this is an unsourced variant of "[I do not] carry such information in my mind since it is readily available in books" (referring to the speed of sound)

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#250
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As stated several times over the years, particularly on HN and by patio11 (edit: or was it Joel on Software? Perhaps both?), work for a profit center not a cost center. The internal software to run insurance companies is a cost center. It is in managements interest to reduce and keep costs down... that's detrimental to what you do. Working on a software product or Saas is a profit center. What you are making is to be…

Yeah, hear ya. Anyone know of any opportunities that match this criteria (profit center) in the Columbus, OH area? I've recently moved here for family reasons, and while there seem to be plenty of opportunities, they are all within the banking, healthcare, insurance verticals, or they are shrouded in mystery behind middleman tech agents. I have not found an easy way to do a search on indeed.com to bring the "profit c…

The majority of "profit center" software and software jobs are on the west coast surrounded around the tech giants and the bustling startups. I believe Austin Texas has a few and so does New York. As for the rest of the country... it's hit or miss. Some of the large(r) Midwest cities will have a software company that has "profit center" software and jobs. I'm further West than you but I know some companies in Madison, Des Moines, La Crosse, Rochester, Decorah exist. Being in smaller markets they don't tend to pay as well $ for $ but when you factor in COLA and QOL they are hard to beat. I know some people that live near me that work remotely for Walmart Labs and make a substantially lot more money. Appleton/Green Bay/Wausau have a lot of insurance software jobs too... the type we seem to want to avoid. I'm not sure what the rust belt has to offer. The best place to look for "profit center" positions is the monthly "Who's Hiring on HN" lists and if you can't/don't want to relocate look for ones that allow remoting. Good luck.
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