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My positive experience as a woman in tech

lea.verou.me

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Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#241

Post by kaitai »

humanrebar wrote: post #200
blowski wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it sexism to make assumptions that are probabilistically correct? Yes it's sexist, because assuming something about somebody based purely on their gender is precisely what sexism is. However, sometimes, in the face of limited data and limited resources to gather more data, being sexist might be the best possible course of action. The problem with the stereotypes of gender is that you are dealing with huge number…

> ...assuming something about somebody based purely on their gender is precisely what sexism is. I'm going to challenge that definition. There are absolutely biological difference between men and women. When I offer to help a young woman carry her suitcase up stairs, am I being sexist because I assume she would appreciate the help? The definition of sexism needs to have room for some reality or the definition is usel…

Well, think about whether you'd help a young man or leave him in the lurch, and think about whether you'd help if the woman in question is 6'1" and 190 pounds of muscle, handling the suitcase quite easily. Agreed that the definition needs to have some room for reality.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#242

Post by lloyd-christmas »

kelukelugames wrote: post #188
CaptSpify wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "tone deaf" and then makes dick jokes What does "tone deaf" mean in this context? And what's wrong with dick-jokes? EDIT: I've poorly worded my question/point: I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with dick jokes in the workplace, but context is key. It's probably best to side on safe in that regard I still would like to know what "tone deaf" means as I'm not understanding that term

Do you really think it's okay to make dick jokes in the workplace?

My female Australian boss says "dumb cunts" roughly 5x a day in reference to some 22 year old marketing "woo"-girls down the hall. I just made a comment about how my balls hang down my left pant leg. In my prior job, I'd never even bring up politics. It's almost as if people and environments are different.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#243

Post by ManFromUranus »

mysticllama wrote: post #192
SuperComputing wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the "sexism" debate was stirred by people who were only tangentially involved in Tech, like the PR person "Adria Richards". If you listen to actual women with actual Math, CS, or EE degrees, you'll hear a different story.

Look at the population of women in fields such as:law, medicine, social science, etc. and you'll see that STEM lags behind in parity. The percentage of women in computing, according to some studies, isn't much higher than it was in 1960! [2] From my perspective as a software engineer, we work in a male-dominated field, and we've made the work culture and norms what we want them to be [1]. The few women who do end up…

Why does nobody make this argument about Nursing, or Teaching, or Social Work, or Psychology, or any of the "Female dominated" fields? When men don't go into a field, they find a way to blame men for it, when women don't go into a field, they find a way to blame men for it. Don't women have any agency? Are they dumb robots that only do what men tell them? Maybe they don't WANT to be in STEM fields...

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#244

Post by dragonwriter »

ManFromUranus wrote: post #243
mysticllama wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the population of women in fields such as:law, medicine, social science, etc. and you'll see that STEM lags behind in parity. The percentage of women in computing, according to some studies, isn't much higher than it was in 1960! [2] From my perspective as a software engineer, we work in a male-dominated field, and we've made the work culture and norms what we want them to be [1]. The few women who do end up…

Why does nobody make this argument about Nursing, or Teaching, or Social Work, or Psychology, or any of the "Female dominated" fields? When men don't go into a field, they find a way to blame men for it, when women don't go into a field, they find a way to blame men for it. Don't women have any agency? Are they dumb robots that only do what men tell them? Maybe they don't WANT to be in STEM fields...

> Why does nobody make this argument about Nursing, or Teaching, or Social Work, or Psychology, or any of the "Female dominated" fields?

People make this argument about female dominated fields (particularly education and nursing, which are, or have been, areas of perceived shortages) all the time; they probably don't make it as often in tech industry focused discussion fora, for reasons of lack of relevance to the venue.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#245

Post by Balgair »

userium wrote: post #133
indifferentalex wrote: post #19

10/10 Will read again. The sexism debate has indeed painted a bleak picture, people so often try to show a different side of the picture but end up using the wrong words or simply adding ambiguity to the discussion, most of the time only making the matter more complicated, and worst of all, pulling us even further from a potential solution. This one showed us not only a potential solution, but also proved it's effect…

Based on discussions we have had with women in tech at https://keepwomen.com , it's not just sexism, but many women leave tech due to working conditions (low salary, no advancement), work-life balance (too much travelling, commuting), or the company environment (poor cultural "fit"). Some solutions for retaining women in tech are e.g. flexible working hours, personal development opportunities and workforce diversity.

Hmm, what does flexible working hours, personal development opportunities and workforce diversity mean in practice? The faults are hard measurable things, but the solutions are more fuzzy and not as easy to measure. When you measure flexible hours, what is your metric for saying that someone has that? When you say dev opportunities, how do I know if I have given my employees enough of them and of what quality? What does workforce diversity mean in terms of age, gender, sex, race, and religion and what targets should I shoot for? Should my workforce match the community I am in or the nation? I think a hard goal for these would be nice to have so I know what to shoot for and be 'good' (again, a fuzzy thing itself)

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#246

Post by JDiculous »

zeveb wrote: post #169
cubano wrote: post #27

Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes... If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in s…

> If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". > If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". In my experience, the exact same thing is true with the sexes switched: behaviour which I find attractive in a woman I find attractive is awful in a woman I don't find attractive. I think this is probably a…

I disagree. Most men if approached by an awkward unattractive woman at a bar will at least be polite and have a normal conversation even if they're not interested. Whereas women will often outright ignore or even act hostile towards an awkward unattractive man trying to strike a conversation.

Men are expected to treat women courteously, whereas women aren't held to the same standard. A woman can treat a man like a disposable garbage bag and it doesn't have the same stigma as a man doing the same to a woman.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#247

Post by kohito »

I think the reason the overall picture painted of women in tech is bleak because the typical experience of being a woman in the tech industry is bleak. Women are scared away from tech by their experience in tech, not by tech's reputation, so I'm not surprised there aren't more Lea's out there.

Women who quit the tech industry (56%) do so at a significantly higher rate than they do in science (47%) and engineering (39%) ("HBR Research Report: The Athena Factor:Reversing the Brain Drain in Science, Engineering, and Technology" -- and I'll add that the report is good about addressing why childcare and the heavy workloads don't entirely account for the quit rate.)

Quit rates in the industry shouldn't be higher than other STEM industries. Even if you grant a pipeline problem, in which case sharing positive stories about women in tech improves the situation, once women are involved, positive stories can't impact how they are treated. The quit rate suggests it's a worse situation for women than in similar industries.

One commenter here suggests Lea's case shows nothing needs to change, which is odd, since Lea doesn't say that. It's also odd that this commenter suggests rule changes addressing inadequacies ought to be characterized as "special rules" -- special changes to fundamentally sound policy -- instead of "better policy" -- fundamental changes to flawed policies, policies demonstrated to be flawed by their unfair and differential impact on women.

Nonetheless, it is great Lea has had a positive experience. I am glad she shared it.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#248

Post by kohito »

I think the reason the overall picture painted of women in tech is bleak because the typical experience of being a woman in the tech industry is bleak. Women are scared away from tech by their experience in tech, not by tech's reputation, so I'm not surprised there aren't more Lea's out there.

Women who quit the tech industry (56%) do so at a significantly higher rate than they do in science (47%) and engineering (39%) ("HBR Research Report: The Athena Factor:Reversing the Brain Drain in Science, Engineering, and Technology" -- and I'll add that the report is good about addressing why childcare and the heavy workloads don't entirely account for the quit rate.)

Quit rates in the industry shouldn't be higher than other STEM industries. Even if you grant a pipeline problem, in which case sharing positive stories about women in tech improves the situation, once women are involved, positive stories can't impact how they are treated. The quit rate suggests it's a worse situation for women than in similar industries.

One commenter here suggests Lea's case shows nothing needs to change, which is odd, since Lea doesn't say that. It's also odd that this commenter suggests rule changes addressing inadequacies ought to be characterized as "special rules" -- special changes to fundamentally sound policy -- instead of "better policy" -- fundamental changes to flawed policies. Policies demonstrated to be flawed by their unfair and differential impact on women.

Nonetheless, it is great Lea has had a positive experience. I am glad she shared it.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#249

Post by kazinator »

kohito wrote: post #247

I think the reason the overall picture painted of women in tech is bleak because the typical experience of being a woman in the tech industry is bleak. Women are scared away from tech by their experience in tech, not by tech's reputation, so I'm not surprised there aren't more Lea's out there. Women who quit the tech industry (56%) do so at a significantly higher rate than they do in science (47%) and engineering (39…

What is "engineering": just mechanical, civil and such? If I'm designing part of the circuit board for a tablet, is that "tech industry" or "engineering"?

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#250

Post by kazinator »

userium wrote: post #133
indifferentalex wrote: post #19

10/10 Will read again. The sexism debate has indeed painted a bleak picture, people so often try to show a different side of the picture but end up using the wrong words or simply adding ambiguity to the discussion, most of the time only making the matter more complicated, and worst of all, pulling us even further from a potential solution. This one showed us not only a potential solution, but also proved it's effect…

Based on discussions we have had with women in tech at https://keepwomen.com , it's not just sexism, but many women leave tech due to working conditions (low salary, no advancement), work-life balance (too much travelling, commuting), or the company environment (poor cultural "fit"). Some solutions for retaining women in tech are e.g. flexible working hours, personal development opportunities and workforce diversity.

If the low salary and no advancement are simply due to having XX chromosomes (similarly skilled and productive males at the same organization do get paid more and advance), then she's in fact leaving due to sexism, not simply working conditions.
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