What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#241

Post by analog31 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:27 AM UTC

omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

One downside is if entire segments of the population have no stake in supporting STEM education, or in keeping STEM careers in the US.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#242

Post by nmrm2 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:28 AM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #217

jleyank wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but incomplete. Some of us got interested in scientific fields because we were interested in science (not science fiction). For me, it was a good teacher at a critical time in HS. Not a role model, as I did not and really do not wish to be a teacher. But somebody who opened a door into something that excited me.

Could you square that circle for me where you are interested in science, but not science fiction? I'm not talking about science fantasy, but fiction rooted in science and the ramifications of scientific development.

This isn't strange at all. I interact with scientists fairly regularly and very few are fans of science fiction in any sense of the phrase.

Most scientists are normal people with an aptitude for a certain discipline, enjoy working on interesting problems, and had the luck of having encountered a mentor or two who steered them toward research. None of the ideas that drive the creation of sci fi are necessary to be a scientist. It really is just another career.

In fact, I can't think of a single scientist I (personally) know who became a scientist because of sci fi. (Which isn't to say that they don't exist.)

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#243

Post by solofounder2 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:30 AM UTC

ashworth wrote: post #233

rewqfdsa wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand your parable correctly, you're suggesting that men deliberately mock and reject women trying to enter the field. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. I have never, not once, witnessed the behavior you describe. I've seen nothing but welcoming behavior toward everyone who wants to learn software. Even among proponents of the systemic discrimination theory, the consensus these days…

What??? My childhood best friend and college roommate shocked me by calling one of our CS classmates a "huge bitch" for not going on a date with him after they had lunch together our first week of college. I've lost track of how many sexist lines I've heard, like: "make me a sammich bitch, haha", "don't be an emo bitch about it, haha", "if we don't let people freely express themselves on the CS listserv, then this is…

> "emo bitch"

"that guy was kind of a dick" is an offhand comment that just means "rude" or "jerk" and you hear it all the time from college age women when referencing the slightest deviations from their standards of behavior. It refers to the male genitalia in a negative connotation and is terefor far more explicit than the dog word.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#244

Post by JesperRavn » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:30 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #221

tptacek wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't trying to be gender-specific with my example, just showing how something you can do as a manager to build culture can exclude and alienate people. (Though: I do think beer drinking trends masculine.)

It's really hard to win at this. Whatever you do as a culture or team building exercise is going to either offend or just be uncomfortable to some subset of employees, unless it's so bland as to be boring for everyone.

It seems like a borderline example. I feel that the "brogrammer" stereotype was invented up mainly because the nerd stereotype was too sympathetic. I'm genuinely curious if there are examples of the kind of stereotypes in the article being promoted right now by tech companies.

As an aside, these sorts of critiques of mainstream/White culture are somewhat contradictory in that they criticize any specific cultural identity as being exclusive and insular, and yet whenever this is lacking, they point to how boring mainstream/White culture is. Even lack of crime can be turned into evidence of boringness. For example, for every article on the negative effect of nerd culture on diversity, there is an article complaining about the decline of nerd culture and the rise of corporatism. The latter tend to be highly revisionist and pretend that the tech industry was founded by LSD taking hippies who coded inside isolation tanks. But the contradiction is still stark.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#245

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:31 AM UTC

jkyle wrote: post #114

yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

Is it true that there is a "rise of pop-culture portrayals of scientists as white or Asian male geeks"? I've seen a little bit of TV this year - every hacker I saw was female, and most were goths. Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" and looking up the ones that are likely to have a hacker as a character, I discover "Arrow" (female hacker), NCIS (female hacker), 24 (female hacker), Criminal Minds (female hacker), P…

> Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" Hollywood has a history of being a canary in the coal mine when it comes to stereotypes...both good and bad. For example, when homosexuality started becoming more accepted in American culture one of the first signs were prominent gay sitcom characters.

Was it different in the past? Thinking back, the main "hackers" have been Keano Reeves, Angeline Jolie, Sandra Bullock and Justin Long.

Now that I think of it, was the reality of hacking being primarily male ever displayed in popular media?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#246

Post by pavornyoh » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:31 AM UTC

brc wrote: post #172

pavornyoh wrote: post #19

> What really keeps women out of Tech? It is because they don't want to be there. The opportunity is there for everyone to take thus men and women. I actually think women have an advantage in this space and it is up to them to see it and advantage of it. As a woman, I am tired this. If you want it, go and get it. There shouldn't be any special treatment. Prove you deserve to be at the table, prove you deserve to be t…

I tend to agree with this. For whatever reason, girls just don't like the work. When I stated studying, the ratio was 50:50 split. By graduation time, it was down to 80:20 as he girls transferred into different courses or dropped out. I was friends with many - as they changed or dropped out they all said they don't like the subject matter or the type of work. By the time we all started working, it was further down to…

@Brc, I agree with you a 100%. Obviously this has to be discussed and does stir emotions. It is fine but people have to understand although you can raise a kid a certain way, they won't always do what you want. We also have to consider external factors that influence such decisions and why a person decides to choose a specific field. It will be nice for the ratio to be 50:50 when it comes to these things but it does not work that way.

Not going to hijack the thread but I am going to use myself as a guinea pig. I am a young black woman who likes hanging out here. I personally don't believe things should be handed to me. I expect to be judge based on my merits and as such. Did someone force me to come and be on hacker news? No. It a place I really like and learn alot and has been welcoming. So if women want to be in tech, they just need to make the effort and show the desire for it. They can start by choosing courses in universities and seeking out help and asking questions. They can also do research and see where like- minded individuals hangout if they are really serious about learning.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#247

Post by jleyank » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:32 AM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #217

jleyank wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but incomplete. Some of us got interested in scientific fields because we were interested in science (not science fiction). For me, it was a good teacher at a critical time in HS. Not a role model, as I did not and really do not wish to be a teacher. But somebody who opened a door into something that excited me.

Could you square that circle for me where you are interested in science, but not science fiction? I'm not talking about science fantasy, but fiction rooted in science and the ramifications of scientific development.

While I have read science fiction, it's not high on my list. I prefer various forms of history to SF and I have read one fantasy series (Katherine Kurtz). Perhaps I just prefer to look backwards to understand today (and the near future) rather than far off to anticipate the future? I think I'm more of a problem solver than a visionary.

I also have a problem with anything where the science (or engineering, I guess) isn't right or consistent in my eyes. I find such things TERRIBLY distracting, slaughtering what might otherwise be a good story. Anal, yeah, but then you probably suspected this as this is HN, after all.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#248

Post by super-serial » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:32 AM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #59

zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

I believe that girls and boys naturally (either through differences in neural architecture, hormone exposure, or early acculturation) simply have different average preferences, and that these preferences manifest over their lifetimes as differences in life stories and career choices. I don't think this difference is a problem we need to solve. Diversity is supposed to make our culture richer, right? If so, why are so…

This comment says everything better than I could say it.

Programming is a solitary activity where you solve logic puzzles. Anyone can do it. Another activity that is very similar is playing chess - yet no one is up in arms that chess schools aren't including 50% girls in elite chess training.

If you took a group of girls and a group of boys and put them in a room where they played chess for a few hours, then asked them how much they enjoyed it... more boys would rate the activity higher. Is it because some stupid poster on the wall??? No it's not. On average, men and women are different and have different average preferences.

Programming is not an activity where you need social support groups to succeed. It's the one activity where being a hermit who takes initiative and learns everything themselves can be an advantage over being more social. A large portion of programmers are self-taught online, and just start tinkering with things because they enjoy the activity. You can't force that.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#249

Post by hugh4 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:34 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #85

tptacek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a strange expectation we have here. I have a couple lawyer friends; none of them have lawyer magazine, or wear lawyer t-shirts.

But would anyone write an article saying that potential law students were put off by walls of law books and big mahogany desks?

More appropriate analogy: law students being put off by Sex In The City.

That's in some hypothetical world where the law industry is for some bizarre reason as obsessed with Sex In The City as the tech industry is obsessed with science fiction. Conversations among coworkers return to Sex and the City references with tedious regularity. The meeting rooms at your firm are called Carrie and Miranda and Samantha and... the other one. Your firm's senior partner shows you, with pride, the signed portrait of Sarah Jessica Parker that occupies pride of place in his office. I can imagine that would be pretty alienating for anyone who isn't a SatC fan.

Luckily law isn't so ridiculously obsessed with some tiny facet of pop culture.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#250

Post by greggman » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:36 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #42

I had a hard time with this when I was in software, because I didn't enjoy video games or sci-fi or a lot of the things my coworkers did. I have nothing against those things, but I feel like in the industry it's pretty common to adopt these things into the work culture instead of trying to keep the workplace more neutral. I would liken it to working at an office where everyone is really into sports. I'll watch the oc…

I 100% want more women in tech so this is only a comment on the star wars posters side of the thing

making video games is/requires programming so there's bound to a be a large overlap in programmers who are interested in video games.

Sci-fi inspires lots of people to get into programming. From wanting to create R2-D2 and C3PO to wanting to create projected holograms, wanting to create tricorders, computers that can take voice commands, touch surfaces, fancy new interfaces, virtual reality, AI, and many other topics touched on in sci-fi that are all directly related to programming.

Sports are not directly related and do not directly inspire most jobs but sci-fi does directly inspire many programmers to program and probably many other STEM careers. video games also inspire many programmers to program since video games are programming.