Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers • Hacker News Board

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#231

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 4:48 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #41

UK-AL wrote: post #23

I just don't think gamers understand, if you pay for high quality mods, your gonna get more high quality mods. It's a bit like the crazy excuses people make for pirating games.

Clearly, that's a simplistic view of the world. The iOS app store (and, I expect, Play too) is choking on shit-quality shovelware, while I pay zero for Ubuntu and a whole range of other high-quality open source tools that have tons of volunteer contributions. Adding financial incentives to a community built on a share-and-share-alike mentality skews things a lot. I can see this whole paid mod thing working, but it's…

[deleted]

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#232

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 4:50 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #41

UK-AL wrote: post #23

I just don't think gamers understand, if you pay for high quality mods, your gonna get more high quality mods. It's a bit like the crazy excuses people make for pirating games.

Clearly, that's a simplistic view of the world. The iOS app store (and, I expect, Play too) is choking on shit-quality shovelware, while I pay zero for Ubuntu and a whole range of other high-quality open source tools that have tons of volunteer contributions. Adding financial incentives to a community built on a share-and-share-alike mentality skews things a lot. I can see this whole paid mod thing working, but it's…

[deleted]

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#233

Post by dogma1138 » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 4:50 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #41

UK-AL wrote: post #23

I just don't think gamers understand, if you pay for high quality mods, your gonna get more high quality mods. It's a bit like the crazy excuses people make for pirating games.

Clearly, that's a simplistic view of the world. The iOS app store (and, I expect, Play too) is choking on shit-quality shovelware, while I pay zero for Ubuntu and a whole range of other high-quality open source tools that have tons of volunteer contributions. Adding financial incentives to a community built on a share-and-share-alike mentality skews things a lot. I can see this whole paid mod thing working, but it's…

You pay zero for Google products also but it just as does canonical has plenty of full-time paid developers on their payroll.

In fact I can't think of a single real high end open source project which it's development isn't fully supported by an army of paid developers.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#234

Post by Raphmedia » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

skizm wrote: post #220

Raphmedia wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in reality Bethesda did most of the work Yes, but no. Sure, they made the game, but why should they take such a big cut of someone spending 6 months modelling 3d models, coding features, recording sounds, etc.? A lot of games are still alive right now thanks to their modding community and the hard work of modders. Those people are not creating a product off the back of the big games. They are modifying the current…

Bethesda did not ask for the fix. They have no obligation to compensate them financially. Also, the amount of work one developer did in 6 months modding the game is probably still only an insanely small fraction of the work that went into coding the game engine being used. Which is probably written by dozens of programmers for months if not years. Last, if you don't want them to make money on your mod, mark it free.…

> Bethesda did not ask for the fix. They have no obligation to compensate them financially.

This is why this isn't about Bethesda paying or not paying modders. This is about why the hell should Bethesda get 75% of the profit out of a modification that was made on someone's own time and sold through a third party. It's not as if Bethesda was doing quality control, providing support, hosting the mods or providing a marketplace. Steam is providing the hosting for the mods and providing the marketplace, so it makes sense they get that small cut.

Bethesda shouldn't be getting such a big part of the pie.

This is not about some mods being free while other are paid. This is the community saying "No, we don't accept that. The modder getting 25% of profit for something that was done independently, without their support, is unacceptable."

The game company is getting free content, free publicity, free developers. They shouldn't also get the majority of the profit.

edit: fixed some numbers that were wrong (75% profit by company vs 25% profit by modder)

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#235

Post by llama052 » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #168

talmand wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all game engines, some are free to use.

Some are, true. But the ones with lots of features, that everyone really wants to use—the ones that you can make games for multiple platforms, and that big development houses use—those... are not free.

[0] Actually if you look at some of the big engines, they are becoming free, or require a small royalty to use, and it sure as hell isn't a 75% cut.

[0]https://www.unrealengine.com/what-is-unreal-engine-4

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#236

Post by SN76477 » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

erikb wrote: post #32

Let's not underestimate what Valve has done here. At first they tried to give passionate content providers a way to also make some money. That's a huge thing. Most modders can tell you about it. Then they screwed up, which can happen if you try something the first time. I think it's okay, but I understand why people are pissed. Then the boss himself comes and talks to people on reddit to see what is going on. He gets…

Valve are people and people make mistakes. With that said, lets make sure that we pay attention to how FEW mistakes they make.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#237

Post by oldmanjay » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #140

cma wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make a Mickey Mouse sequel using derivative assets, how much of a cut would Disney want? Keeping in mind the assets would be open to competing high-caliber studios (back to the Skyrim example, just allowing for free modding generally precludes competing triple-A's from producing anything, but give them say a "fair" 75% cut of expansions or complete sequels to a competitor's bockbuster game, taking advantage of…

If you make a Mickey Mouse sequel, it doesn't require users to first buy a copy of the original movie. Using a mod does . These two things are in no way comparable.

It's pretty darn hard to make a derivative work without understanding the source material. I suspect your immediate dismissal of this analogy is more related to your strong personal greed for entertainment, which appears to be a fundamental human feature.

One wonders how that could have evolved. Someone should do experiments where they deny access to three company episodes to chimps, to see if they freak out as badly as the internet generation does when they can't get their favorite things.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#238

Post by warbaker » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 5:19 PM UTC

This is why we can't have nice things.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#239

Post by dysfunction » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 5:29 PM UTC

random28345 wrote: post #185

michaelt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first they tried to give passionate content providers a way to also make some money. Given that the "passionate content providers" only make 25% of what users pay, I think that's a very generous interpretation. Edit: It doesn't matter if it's Valve or Bethesda or the tooth fairy that takes the remaining 75% - the fact is this system does little to accomplish the goal of "giving passionate content providers a way t…

So the closest analogue to computer game "mods" in the book publishing world is "fan fiction". Note that 25% is pretty generous when you're creating a derivitive work off of someone else's IP. See Kindle Worlds http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1001197421 for an example of the kind of deal you'd be lucky to get.

Fan-fiction doesn't require you to have bought the original work to read (though having read the original may affect your enjoyment of the fanfic).

Honda doesn't get a cut if I have my car modded at an independent shop.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#240

Post by skizm » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 5:29 PM UTC

Raphmedia wrote: post #234

skizm wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bethesda did not ask for the fix. They have no obligation to compensate them financially. Also, the amount of work one developer did in 6 months modding the game is probably still only an insanely small fraction of the work that went into coding the game engine being used. Which is probably written by dozens of programmers for months if not years. Last, if you don't want them to make money on your mod, mark it free.…

> Bethesda did not ask for the fix. They have no obligation to compensate them financially. This is why this isn't about Bethesda paying or not paying modders. This is about why the hell should Bethesda get 75% of the profit out of a modification that was made on someone's own time and sold through a third party. It's not as if Bethesda was doing quality control, providing support, hosting the mods or providing a mar…

If the community didn't accept it, they wouldn't sell the mods. Just mark them all as free. This is opt-in.

Also, for the record, Bethesda only gets 45%, Valve get 30%, and the modder gets 25%.

> The game company is getting free content, free publicity, free developers. They shouldn't also get the majority of the profit.

You have it backwards, the modder is getting free content (the base game), free publicity (Bethesda spent $100m+ advertising Skyrim) and free developers (everyone who developed the engine/assets/etc.). The modder is getting way more free stuff than Bethesda.