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What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

paulgraham.com

231–240 of 332 posts

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#231
post #11

Is it common for programmers to dislike debugging? I'm stunned. I never considered the possibility, it's always been something I enjoyed. I don't believe it impacts you either way in terms of capability but I imagine it impacts your desire to continue.

I love it. It's often like figuring out a giant puzzle.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#232
post #35

i enjoy chopping vegetables much more than most people, and i'm told i'm quite good at e.g. making sauerkraut - an activity i truly enjoy. but i get paid a lot more to write software, which is also reasonably fun. to be honest i think i only enjoy writing software about as much as the next person! can we be honest that it's an absurdly good job currently? https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/01/in-the-name-of-love/

Would you enjoy chopping vegetables if you had to do it for 40 hours a week? Would it become a little less pleasurable, perhaps, if someone were sending you emails asking why you haven't updated the carrots ticket with your current progress, or moved the potatoes card on the Kanban board?

(I have a bit of a thing for grating cheese - I find it strangely therapeutic.)

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#233
post #5

This dichotomy, and the realization that it can fuel smart people to use their abilities to do amazing things in the world, is what upsets me most about the startup ecosystem. I'm a programmer. Writing weather software doesn't seem like work to me. However, since going through a startup accelerator, I'm supposed to all these things that are very much "work" - and it gets me down. Things that are important, for sure,…

I knew some folks at Google who were very content to stay an engineer at the bottom of the org chart and watch the people they mentored get promoted above them, because they understood that what made them happy was writing code and solving tough technical problems, not managing people or playing political games. I always respected them for that. Same reason that Steve Wozniak was always far more of a hero to me than…

To this day I will stay at the bottom of the org chart being an engineer cause that's where I want to be. -Steve Wozniak

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJif4i9NRdI#t=290

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#234
post #42
post #38

This excerpt - "what he really liked was solving problems. The text of each chapter was just some advice about solving them. He said that as soon as he got a new textbook he'd immediately work out all the problems—to the slight annoyance of his teacher, since the class was supposed to work through the book gradually." is literally me. I did that. Every year at my school I did exactly that. Once I actually turned in m…

As (failed) physics major, it sounds so strange to hear someone claim to be good at math but not physics. To me physics is 98% math. It's a few empirical facts from experiments and then bucketloads of math.

Funny you should say that. During my undergraduate, I got almost fired from my University for being one of the top students at maths and one of the worse in physics - it was in France, a bit different than in the US.

I recall that a physics chapter would start by "we take the Maxwell equations as [complex formulae]..." and for the life of me I wasn't able to understand them, or see where the teacher took that from.

On the other hand, maths seemed more logical, and even now - almost 15 years later - I can correctly recall my undergraduate maths classes, because I have them so well ingrained in me, because I could understand how various ideas connected to each other.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#235
>When I was in college I used to write papers for my friends. It was quite interesting to write a paper for a class I wasn't taking.

Sorry, did Paul just say that he helped people cheat in their college classes? Or did the professors know he was writing others' papers?

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#236
post #72

I am surprised at how casually he dropped this in there: "When I was in college I used to write papers for my friends. It was quite interesting to write a paper for a class I wasn't taking. Plus they were always so relieved." Yikes. Really?

Most surprising thing I've ever seen him write. Gave me a bit of a laugh.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know exactly what you mean. But that's the system we live in, isn't it? One must sell one's time And one's soul to survive. What's the way out?

First start by recognizing that there can never be an alternative system to having to earn your way in this world. One way or another, someone's productive effort has to pay for things that get created, whether by currency or direct barter. The only alternative is slavery: someone else being forced to work to fulfill your needs, for no compensation or trade. And then understand that money is nothing but frozen time a…

I disagree.

Yes, trading value must be necessary in a system with scarcity.

But most of the things that make work a struggle for me are simply not necessary at all.

It's not necessary to have nonsense like a few weeks of holiday. The UK is far better than the US in this regard and still we get only a few weeks.

It's not necessary for there to be ludicrous entrenched inequality, which results in most employment being with a mega corporation.

I could go on but I lack the energy, I've had this discussion too many times to count.

The issue is the way in which the system seems artificially set up to benefit the rich. In the UK homes are unaffordable for most of the population now in a way that wasn't the case a few decades ago. That means that the idea of saving for retirement is a total dream for anyone other than a tiny elite of workers.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#238

What if the idea of work itself is what you dislike? There are plenty of activities I can enjoy, and some, quite a few of them in fact, are profitable. Once you shoe-horn them into the power dynamic situation of a traditional job (with the bureaucracy that entails unless you're dealing with Actual People as opposed to corporations), suddenly a lot of the luster disappears. As a ridiculous example - I enjoy reading. I…

As an addition to this, I've struggled a lot with the concept of working for pay and only recently could I really begin to explain why. Some people would probably call it 'entitlement', but I'm not really sure that's an accurate description. As an employee, your role is essentially a permanent state of brown nosing. First of all you must convince a rich person/company that you are worthy. Then you must convince them…

I understand everything you said almost too well. The solution, for me, has been to only work for small businesses (ie, startups) or to find a way to work for myself. PG described the benefits of working in small groups in another essay (last year), and I find it all to ring true.

An HNer who commented below said one other possibility is finding work you're overqualified for, which can be an option, too. This would allow you to do non-challenging work while being able to challenge yourself in other ways in your off time. If you combine this with working online, you may find it to be the solution to your woes. I often say, "I don't care what I do, per se, I care about what that work situation allows me to do" (in my off time, in how I control my time, in where and how I can live).

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#239
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As (failed) physics major, it sounds so strange to hear someone claim to be good at math but not physics. To me physics is 98% math. It's a few empirical facts from experiments and then bucketloads of math.

There are some skills in physics which are sort of foreign to the math method of problem solving. (Speaking as a physics major) For example, picking a nice reference frame in simple mechanics problems is something that a physical intuition is good for. Same with spotting symmetries in an EM problem. Also, in physics you need to have a good grasp of what to ignore because they have only a small effect on the solution…

I majored in math and physics. The same kind of intuition that you use for physics you also use for math. In physics you may call it choosing a reference frame, in math you call it choosing a coordinate system. At least for me it's exactly the same kind of thinking. You hit the nail on the head here though:

> Also, in physics you need to have a good grasp of what to ignore because they have only a small effect on the solution or because it operates on a different scale (fringing effects, transient solutions in ODEs), which often relies on a very hand-wavey type of reasoning.

Physics is often taught in an exceedingly vague and hand-wavey way. Physics students have to learn to ignore that nagging feeling that something is not quite right. This is impossible for a mathematician. A mathematician wants to cleanly separate the math from the problem that is being solved using math. The problem specification consists of a list of assumptions, and the solution of the problem consists of 100% rock solid math. Physicists weave the two together, so that in the end it's often not clear what is actually being assumed. Furthermore, it's usually not explained based on which experiments those assumptions are justified. A counterexample is special relativity. There it's clearly assumed that the speed of light is constant, and the experiments on which that assumption is based are explained, and from there it's mostly logical deduction. In other topics that is sadly not the case. I would love a physics education where you start with the experiments and work from there, instead of saying "Bam! Here are Maxwell's differential equations. Now deduce things from that based on hand-wavey arguments". I don't mean having the students perform the experiments themselves, just describe what somebody else did and what the results were, and why that led people to believe that the laws of physics are as they are. To make time for that, we should remove the endless by hand solving of special cases of special cases. We live in the 21st century. Instead use numerical methods everywhere, which easily tackle the general case. Got n electrons with initial positions and initial velocities, and you want to see what happens? No problem.

/rant

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#240
I'm a little late to the conversation, but I need to say this just for myself. But yeah I totally get this. As a rising fifth grader in the mid-80's, "somehow" I heard of or got invited to some summer school computer class. Basically for 4 weeks I went back to school and learned about computers on an Apple IIe. We played some lemonadestand game and even wrote BASIC on some Trash80's. That was my watershed moment. Ever since then I knew I was going to be a programmer. I remember as a senior in high school, the only computer class they had was on BASIC programming. Since I had literally been doing it for 7 years, I aced it. The teacher would hand out exams (yes on paper) and I would be done before she finished handing them out to the rest of the class. I hated that I was out in the sticks in highschool though. If only I had someone I could have been mentored from, there's no telling where I'd be now. But hey, I still enjoy programming (debugging MY code, creating code, etc). I'm attending way too many meetings now and I rarely open my IDE at work. But the thrill of creation and making the computer do what I tell it to do is pretty awesome after 30+ years. I need a side project...
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