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Failing the startup game at Unbabel

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Re: Failing the startup game at Unbabel

#231

Post by BrotherBrax »

Since many people are making (wrong) assumptions about Portuguese work laws, I'd like to chime in as a Portuguese guy working in IT and with good knowledge of these laws (I like to always be aware of my rights). The critical part of this argument is the "at will" period that Vasco (Unbabel's CEO) mentioned, technically called an "experimental period" (EP). Here is a summary (in Portuguese -- the Google translated version is decent enough) of the relevant part of the law: http://emprego.sapo.pt/guia-carreira/artigo/166/artigo.htm

Also, here is the law itself in case you want to read it (articles 111 to 114, also in Portuguese): http://www.legix.pt/Portals/3/docs/CT09-23_Jul_2012.pdf

The typical way to hire full-time workers in Portugal is indeed a full-time contract with an experimental period (EP), what Vasco colloquially called an "at-will" period. These contracts are called "por tempo indeterminado" (or sometimes "sem termo" or "com termo incerto"), which means "for an indefinite period". The EP can last between 90 days (3 months) and 240 days (8 months) -- non-managerial roles get 90 days, which is what Andreas had on his contract (shorter durations benefit the worker). After the EP is over it is VERY hard, from a legal standpoint, to fire a worker, which is why the EP exists in the first place.

During this experimental period, the employer can terminate the contract with no advance notice and paying no compensation for the first 2 months. Between 2 months and 4 months (if the EP lasts that long), the employer must warn 7 days prior, or pay 7 days of salary as compensation. After more than 4 months, and until the end of the EP, it is 15 days. The worker can always terminate the contract with no notice during the EP. After the EP is over, the worker must provide 1 month of advance notice to terminate the contract, and the company usually cannot fire the worker at all.

According to Andreas' original post, he was fired after 1 month, during his EP, which means he is entitled to no compensation. Unbabel paid two extra weeks of salary (Andreas admits that in his blog post), which shows that they treated him better than the law requires. If indeed he was also paid $1000 extra (from Vasco's post), that is even further above what the law requires.

Andreas' blog post suggests that he thought he had a 3-month contract, which he did not. Legally, he could even be fired after 1 day on the job, and get paid 1 day and nothing more. While Unbabel may be slightly guilty of not explaining correctly what Andreas signed, I still believe that Andreas has the majority of the blame for not understanding what he signed or searching around what are the typical work laws in Portugal. Heck, if I went to Sweden, I'd ask for an English translation of the contract from someone outside the company, even if the company itself provided an English translation. What happened with the landlord seems to confirm this, since he had the legal right to stay for as long as his deposits lasted, and simply calling the police (no need for a lawsuit) would ensure that he could stay until his deposits ran out. It is, again, very hard to evict a person just like that.

In summary: Unless I'm missing something here, Andreas was treated considerably better than required by law and has no legal grounds for complaining.

Re: Failing the startup game at Unbabel

#232

Post by ergodic »

andreasgonewild wrote: post #205
anmonteiro90 wrote: post #63

As injust as Unbabel's behavior towards you might have been, I feel this story is being told from a rather extreme perspective, wouldn't you agree? As a 37-year-old who has been writing code since 8, I feel that you should be more used to finding clumsy code, especially in a startup (that I suppose is iterating very fast, trying to make ends meet). As someone who confidently relocated from Sweden to Portugal, were yo…

I wasn't surprised to find bad code there. I was surprised that my job didn't seem to include making it better. Unbabel is based in SF and is unique in offering SF level compensation in Portugal. Perhaps I was naive in expecting them to honor our contract, it does seem like fucking people over is business as usual in Portugal.

Context: I lived in Lisbon four years and know one of the founders of Unbabel. I do not know you, neither your story.

Regarding your comments:

> That's one thing I really hated about Portugal, they just don't offer any information in English

>Thanks, but from the experience I had with both my employer and my landlord in Portugal I'd rather not do business with any Portuguese people ever again. Sorry.

>it does seem like fucking people over is business as usual in Portugal

>Have you had any experience with the Portuguese state or legal system? I'd probably still be standing in a queue somewhere.

Blaming the whole country for a 90 day experience does not seem very proportional to me.

Again, I do not know your story and can not speak for the veracity of your facts. What I do know is Lisbon (and I have lived many years in Spain and Germany to compare with). From that I know that you are just being, at best, exaggerated and I wonder if you have been exaggerating other stuff too.

Re: Failing the startup game at Unbabel

#233

Post by fuj »

gone35 wrote: post #181
vasco_ wrote: post #131

For the record I am a co-founder and CEO of Unbabel. I feel that I should respond to these allegations. 1 - The contract we had with Andreas was full time employee contract. The first three months were "at will" which means that either one was free to terminate the relation at any time. We have a signed contract to prove it and I am happy to share a sample of the contract to anyone that wants. When we fired him, we n…

A position just opened up :) Most inappropriate HN job posting, ever. Is it perhaps a culture/language barrier? Do they even realize how callous their little segue is?

It's not a language barrier problem. I'm from Portugal too and he sounds like a douche.

Re: Failing the startup game at Unbabel

#234

Post by BrotherBrax »

andreasgonewild wrote: post #193
BSousa wrote: post #3

I feel sorry for you, I really do! Not knowing the details of your contract I can't say for sure, but with the recent changes in employment law in Portugal, I think legally (not ethically) they maybe in the right. I can put you in contact with a lawyer that specialises in this kind of situations, but honestly, for 1.5 months salary, it isn't probably worth it for you (justice system in PT is very very slow, though th…

I only learned about the loop hole in Portuguese employment law from this discussion. That's one thing I really hated about Portugal, they just don't offer any information in English, even the signs in the museums are in Portuguese, it's no mystery to me that a lot of the translation startups are based there. The thing is, were I come from, if you have a contract for three months, you have a contract for three months…

What loophole? It's not something missing in the law, it is very well detailed in the law (see links in a previous post of mine, or from some other posters as well). Swedish contract law also seems to have trial periods, BTW: http://www.business-sweden.se/PageFiles/10381/Employing%20st...

In Sweden it seems that the employer must always give two weeks of notice, that's not the case here. But on the other hand you were paid two extra weeks of wage.

I know for a fact that Luxembourg, UK, and Bulgaria at least have trial periods as well and they are typical in these countries. I don't know about other EU countries, nor do I know whether they are typical in Sweden. But they are certainly not loopholes.

(BTW my apologies if I sound blunt, I love my country and don't like seeing false statements posted which make it seem that working here is very bad, when the truth is quite the opposite -- after the trial period is over, you are very well protected and can expect a job for life unless the company goes bust, goes through a major layoff, or fires you illegally, in which case courts and unions will defend you)

BTW here in Portugal you can also have a 3-month contract. They are uncommon in the IT world, but they exist especially in less well-paid positions (supermarkets, call centers, etc). In that case the trial period cannot exceed 15 days. If your contract says "com termo certo" (meaning "with predetermined duration"), then you did have a 3 month contract and are entitled to legal action.

Have you tried translating the contract on Google or Bing to understand what it says?

Re: Failing the startup game at Unbabel

#235

Post by paulojreis »

ergodic wrote: post #232
andreasgonewild wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't surprised to find bad code there. I was surprised that my job didn't seem to include making it better. Unbabel is based in SF and is unique in offering SF level compensation in Portugal. Perhaps I was naive in expecting them to honor our contract, it does seem like fucking people over is business as usual in Portugal.

Context: I lived in Lisbon four years and know one of the founders of Unbabel. I do not know you, neither your story. Regarding your comments: > That's one thing I really hated about Portugal, they just don't offer any information in English >Thanks, but from the experience I had with both my employer and my landlord in Portugal I'd rather not do business with any Portuguese people ever again. Sorry. >it does seem li…

Yet, as a portuguese, it's hard to dismiss his claims. The queues and slow state services, the "fucking people over" (mainly in employer-employee and vendor-customer relationships), the lack of information in english (unless you consider the restaurant menus as sufficient)... well, you run into this every-fuckin-day.

He may be escalating his issues, but - again, as a portuguese - I don't think he got the wrong idea about the sad state of affairs here.

Re: Failing the startup game at Unbabel

#236

Post by pender »

andreasgonewild wrote: post #210
pender wrote: post #111

The real lesson to be learned: don't jump out on a limb without pre-established safety net. Moving to a new country seems like pretty big risk to take on a 3 month contract. Heck I wouldn't move from a current job to another one in town without a signing bonus to cover the risk.

The problem here isn't that I didn't have a safety net, I'll survive. The problem from my perspective is they behaved like total jerks and were getting away with it.

Did u change the content of your article since originally posting it?

Re: Failing the startup game at Unbabel

#237

Post by andreasgonewild »

pender wrote: post #236
andreasgonewild wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here isn't that I didn't have a safety net, I'll survive. The problem from my perspective is they behaved like total jerks and were getting away with it.

Did u change the content of your article since originally posting it?

I removed the reference to my current financial situation as some people took it as an invitation to speculate about my private life and start giving financial advice. The point I was trying to make is that I'm not trying to get rich by squeezing more money out of Unbabel.

Re: Failing the startup game at Unbabel

#238

Post by andreasgonewild »

DanBC wrote: post #217
andreasgonewild wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really what happened though. I had a contract for a minimum of four months on the apartment. Which wouldn't have been a problem for me even if I quit after three months. I deposited the last months rent when I signed the contract. When I informed the landlord that I could only stay two months, she kept the deposit and forced me to leave the apartment in the middle of the second month.

Your landlord treating you illegally is not unbabel's problem. Did you seek help from Portuguese legal system for your landlord problem?

I don't really think my landlord was treating me illegally, unethical perhaps considering the situation. Unbabel helped me set up the contract for the apartment. They knew that I was stuck with it for four months when they fired me.

Re: Failing the startup game at Unbabel

#239

Post by pender »

andreasgonewild wrote: post #237
pender wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did u change the content of your article since originally posting it?

I removed the reference to my current financial situation as some people took it as an invitation to speculate about my private life and start giving financial advice. The point I was trying to make is that I'm not trying to get rich by squeezing more money out of Unbabel.

As I remember it, your original write up painted a picture showing that you were in dire straights as a consequence of the situation. That came across, to me, as going too far. The outcome of your situation was certainly impacted by them, but really you put yourself in the situation and therefore it's outcome. While I do think they were being cheap, they did not land you there - you did.

I hope it works out better for you in the future. I'm pretty sure it will, you obviously have the skill... just need to find a better fit.

Re: Failing the startup game at Unbabel

#240

Post by walshemj »

vasco_ wrote: post #131

For the record I am a co-founder and CEO of Unbabel. I feel that I should respond to these allegations. 1 - The contract we had with Andreas was full time employee contract. The first three months were "at will" which means that either one was free to terminate the relation at any time. We have a signed contract to prove it and I am happy to share a sample of the contract to anyone that wants. When we fired him, we n…

Is "at will" a very American concept even valid in EU/Portuguese employment law? - I certainly haven't heard that Portugal has American style employment laws
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