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Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

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Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#231

Post by jlangenauer »

coriny wrote: post #106
kzrdude wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchy doesn't really exist. It's just that people want to go back to a state before the current contracts and laws were passed. What would happen? The same kinds of associations, rules, and laws would form again.

Anarcho-collectivists, which as far as I understand, represents the dominant modern anarchistic philosophy, examine alternative methods to central government for generating laws. So they don't argue for an unregulated society - which is obviously a non-starter under the lens of reality - or a return to pre-government, but rather a complete replacement of the law-making mechanism. Basically, they're all over complexit…

Yes, as someone who's interested in this, I'd love to read any links or papers about this aspect of it.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#232

Post by baddox »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #228
baddox wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the primary idea is that the economic issues that plague markets also plague governments. Public choice is the discipline of applying economic principles to governments. You can't treat government as a black box to solve economic issues without recognizing that economic issues affect government as well. For example, to theorize a law, regulation, or form of government to solve some economic problem like the p…

You have a good point here. I agree that governments are not exempt from the game-theoretic rules that affect everything else. While they are an effective solution to coordination problems of society, they suffer from coordination problems of their own (I think that might be one of the reason governments tend to develop layered structures; it's like turtles all way down, but here we have governments all way up). > Bu…

> I think one of the arguments for this would be the fact that it actually happens - i.e. people left alone tend to form governments that then make flood control systems :).

I should have said "efficiently produce flood control systems." In other words, produce them in cases where the benefits outweigh the costs, and not produce them in cases where the costs outweigh the benefits. Of course, that's implied in the concept of "public good problem."

> From what you wrote in your previous comment I understand that you believe, that if one would sum up all the benefits and all the costs of government regulation, one would end up with a negative number. Have I undestood you correctly?

Yes, although I fully recognize that there is probably no physical way to measure and agree on each cost/benefit.

> I.e. what makes the costs bigger than benefits?

I think the biggest effect is that concentrated interests tend to beat dispersed interests when they compete to influence a government, and less so when they compete in a market.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#233

Post by lucaspiller »

DaveLond wrote: post #98
maccard wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ryanair don't do that. The price they advertise at the flight choice time is the price you pay. THey then try shove extras down your throat, but you're not obligated to buy travel insurance, rent a car, use their jet ski etc .

That's not the case - I flew with them a few weeks ago. Turns out in order to print the return journey boarding pass more than a week in advance you need to pre-book a seat (for a cost). Not great if you're going away for two weeks without guaranteed access to a printer.

In my experience pretty much any hotel or hostel will print them if you ask nicely, or at least point you in the direction of someone who will cheaply. I paid €1 to print 5 pages at an Internet cafe in Italy a couple of months ago.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#234

Post by nileshtrivedi »

baddox wrote: post #147
TeMPOraL wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I would point to game theory (and economics more generally) to support that view. Please do, this sounds interesting.

I think the primary idea is that the economic issues that plague markets also plague governments. Public choice is the discipline of applying economic principles to governments. You can't treat government as a black box to solve economic issues without recognizing that economic issues affect government as well. For example, to theorize a law, regulation, or form of government to solve some economic problem like the p…

But a market for governments does exist. People "buy" or support their governments through elections and immigration.

Edit: On second thought, perhaps you were talking about not a particular government, but a system of government. In that case, immigration is the only choice.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#235

Post by wahsd »

rmc wrote: post #40
epaga wrote: post #3

Sounds like an excellent law to stop the horrid practices in so many online shops. Let's hope a form of this law spreads throughout Europe and the U.S. This caught my eye, however: "A failure to comply cancels the transaction. You can get your money back and keep the goods. If the sale was for a service or a digital download, the contract is cancelled and no further payments are due." Wow. Seems like it would make a…

> Let's hope a form of this law spreads throughout Europe Ummm... this is a EU wide law. The UK, as a member state of the EU, had to implement it into UK law (that's how EU laws work). This is already the law of the land in all EU countries. Nearly all good consumer rights laws are done at the EU level.

European countries are largely far less fraud based economies and thus do not allow so many practices that are permitted in the USA.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#236

Post by TeMPOraL »

nileshtrivedi wrote: post #234
baddox wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the primary idea is that the economic issues that plague markets also plague governments. Public choice is the discipline of applying economic principles to governments. You can't treat government as a black box to solve economic issues without recognizing that economic issues affect government as well. For example, to theorize a law, regulation, or form of government to solve some economic problem like the p…

But a market for governments does exist. People "buy" or support their governments through elections and immigration. Edit: On second thought, perhaps you were talking about not a particular government, but a system of government. In that case, immigration is the only choice.

> In that case, immigration is the only choice.

That would be the "exit" from [0].

[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOubCHLXT6A

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#237

Post by baddox »

nileshtrivedi wrote: post #234
baddox wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the primary idea is that the economic issues that plague markets also plague governments. Public choice is the discipline of applying economic principles to governments. You can't treat government as a black box to solve economic issues without recognizing that economic issues affect government as well. For example, to theorize a law, regulation, or form of government to solve some economic problem like the p…

But a market for governments does exist. People "buy" or support their governments through elections and immigration. Edit: On second thought, perhaps you were talking about not a particular government, but a system of government. In that case, immigration is the only choice.

> People "buy" or support their governments through elections and immigration.

True, but elections are plagued by the public good problem, and immigration is in most cases an extremely large transaction cost. There is also obviously some pressure on governments from the threat of violent revolution, but that's an even larger transaction cost and less certain endeavor.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#238

Post by tn13 »

This is ridiculous. So now every tom dick and harry trying to sell something online need to keep in mind a new government regulation which can be bypassed in 10 different ways by those who will do it nevertheless.

At this rate government will even regulate the size and position of buttons. This is something the tech community should unwelcome rather than acting like cheerleaders.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#239

Post by kbart »

kuschku wrote: post #224
saosebastiao wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody can give you shipping charges without knowing your address. The credit card step exists because most of the time the billing address and shipping address are the same.

Hmm, I am paying here on amazon.de with direct bank transfer, and it shows shipping costs even directly on the article page as long as I'm logged in. Why is that?

Denmark is much smaller than USA, so the shipping cost doesn't depend much (or any) on your actual address/postal code.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#240

Post by weavie »

tn13 wrote: post #238

This is ridiculous. So now every tom dick and harry trying to sell something online need to keep in mind a new government regulation which can be bypassed in 10 different ways by those who will do it nevertheless. At this rate government will even regulate the size and position of buttons. This is something the tech community should unwelcome rather than acting like cheerleaders.

Be upfront and honest with your clients about what you are providing and what you are charging for it and you won't have anything to worry about.
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