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Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

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Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#231

Post by balloot »

leccine wrote: post #13

Well Julie's story stinks. Let me just quote the last thigs she wrote and work backwards from that. "Two women, one of whom I work with and adore, and a friend of hers were hula hooping to some music. I didn’t have a problem with this. What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them. It looked like something out of a strip club. When I brought this up to m…

Completely agree. The outrage over hula hooping triggers a giant warning siren that this is a person who is working very hard to be angered and offended.

I don't know the proper way to watch someone hula hoop, but if anyone in my office decided to hula hoop, I would likely watch. Apparently this means I have a terrible attitude towards women, or something.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#232

Post by SolarNet »

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #208

Of course we may never know for sure exactly what was said (unless everything was secretly recorded somehow... NSA - data, please), but my initial reaction is that this story sounds a bit... exaggerated. Were things said that shouldn't have been said? Probably so. But here's the way I read it from TC: Let's look at what Horvath claims: > character started being discussed in inappropriate places like on pull requests…

Actually of all of these the last one is the only one I think your counter is flat out wrong (all the others seem plausible enough). Why? Because gawking at other co-workers (regardless of genders) in a casual environment is not ok. In a casual work environment people often do light exercise, and they need to feel comfortable to do that without being turned into sex objects.

I would hope the men in question have enough self control to ignore women moving their bodies around. You are basically using the same logic as countries that require burqas in public. This has already been covered by feminist movements in this country. It is seriously a sign of how backwards the tech industry is in regards to social equality that this sort of basic stuff is missing from general knowledge.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#233

Post by balls187 »

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #208

Of course we may never know for sure exactly what was said (unless everything was secretly recorded somehow... NSA - data, please), but my initial reaction is that this story sounds a bit... exaggerated. Were things said that shouldn't have been said? Probably so. But here's the way I read it from TC: Let's look at what Horvath claims: > character started being discussed in inappropriate places like on pull requests…

> This is mentioned before anything else regarding the founder or the founder's wife. It sounds like (at least the way it's presented in the article) that some kind of animosity was felt even before any real interaction between the parties.

Speculating wildly here: perhaps they were/are swingers?

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#234

Post by leccine »

lstamour wrote: post #118
pekk wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's consider what it means for this GitHub hula hoop party to be "unsafe." What is the dangerous thing that Horvath thought would happen? Do we really consider the suggestion plausible that GitHub's allowance of hula-hooping-watching will result in a gang rape in its offices?

Is gang rape really only one step removed from hula hooping or is that the only meaning of "unsafe" behaviour you can think of? Having a safe work environment can simply mean being treated professionally and equally. I mean, sexual harassment has a wide scope from "she knew she wanted it," to "it was uncomfortable or rude," and unsafe should cover all of the above. Really, the unsafe refers to a perception that safet…

Watching your co-workers playing hula hoop makes you feel unsafe? Even if it does, how would you present this to court? You think this is enough legal ground for sexual harassment? Come on... The world is the way how we shape it and I definitely don't want to live in a world when I can't do something silly with my co-workers without watching out for feminists or other frustrated hatred people around us.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#235

Post by qdog »

trhway wrote: post #219
qdog wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for a large, bureaucratic company. The only restrictions on dating (and we have a ton of HR rules) is about reports. As long as you neither of you report to each other or have any influence on position etc., corporate has no problem with dating. I can't imagine a startup caring unless you actually cause the drama, and this doesn't sound like that case. Grow up.

well, the founder's wife has some issue with Julia. The story sounds like a fight for a position of an alpha-female. That gives non-zero probability to the idea that either Julia's partner may have been of some interest to the wife, or Julia's behavior toward the founder looked like a challenge to the wife.

Possibly, but the story didn't mention any conflict over the person she is/was seeing.

The founder's wife definitely seems to have a problem with Julie, but it isn't clear from the tech crunch article why that was originally.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#236

Post by SolarNet »

balls187 wrote: post #233
curiousgeorgio wrote: post #208

Of course we may never know for sure exactly what was said (unless everything was secretly recorded somehow... NSA - data, please), but my initial reaction is that this story sounds a bit... exaggerated. Were things said that shouldn't have been said? Probably so. But here's the way I read it from TC: Let's look at what Horvath claims: > character started being discussed in inappropriate places like on pull requests…

> This is mentioned before anything else regarding the founder or the founder's wife. It sounds like (at least the way it's presented in the article) that some kind of animosity was felt even before any real interaction between the parties. Speculating wildly here: perhaps they were/are swingers?

Or she felt that the wife was the type to be jealous of her working closely with the founder. But yea, a lot of possible situations.

But in either case she shouldn't have to feel that way about people in the company. The reason she likely feels different is because of her gender, and the way the founder and his wife treated her because of her gender.

But there are potential explanations of situations in which anyone would be uncomfortable and not just Horvath.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#237

Post by enjo »

joshyeager wrote: post #63
pekk wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised nobody sees sexism in the way that the wife has been stigmatized.

I think that the wife's actions would have been even less acceptable if she were male. The stigma is caused by the repeated unprofessional actions she did, and made worse by the fact that she was not even an employee.

The stigma is caused by the repeated unprofessional actions she did,

Allegedly did.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#238

Post by curiousgeorgio »

SolarNet wrote: post #232
curiousgeorgio wrote: post #208

Of course we may never know for sure exactly what was said (unless everything was secretly recorded somehow... NSA - data, please), but my initial reaction is that this story sounds a bit... exaggerated. Were things said that shouldn't have been said? Probably so. But here's the way I read it from TC: Let's look at what Horvath claims: > character started being discussed in inappropriate places like on pull requests…

Actually of all of these the last one is the only one I think your counter is flat out wrong (all the others seem plausible enough). Why? Because gawking at other co-workers (regardless of genders) in a casual environment is not ok. In a casual work environment people often do light exercise, and they need to feel comfortable to do that without being turned into sex objects. I would hope the men in question have enou…

I wasn't trying to say that "gawking" is acceptable (sorry if that's the way it came across). My point is that one person's description of people "gawking" may very well have been simply the other people acknowledging their presence. It's pretty hard to prove one way or the other.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#239

Post by dobbsbob »

stevenelliottjr wrote: post #47

Pretty ridiculous, I'm sure she'll land on her feet but these startup cultures are a disaster. Hula hoops? No clear management of any kind? I'm all for freedom of expression and all that but try and act like an adult for once in your life and put the hula hoops down.

This place sounds like highschool. People bored so music and hula hoops, coworkers dating, a principals office instead of managers, passive aggressive bullshit. I go to work, code, learn, improve and gtfo. No office parties, no cliques of bros, no boss trying to be my friend, no team events or forced 'fun'. Just professional work and money which is the only reason I'm there.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#240

Post by microjesus »

roflc0ptic wrote: post #32
leccine wrote: post #13

Well Julie's story stinks. Let me just quote the last thigs she wrote and work backwards from that. "Two women, one of whom I work with and adore, and a friend of hers were hula hooping to some music. I didn’t have a problem with this. What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them. It looked like something out of a strip club. When I brought this up to m…

So many words without contributing anything to the discussion. "These accusations seem a bit irrational." What are you even talking about they are factual coupled with her interpretations. This post hints strongly that github is disputing neither. Your read is tortured.

His (or hers?) comment was based on her story, not on the HR reactionary piece referenced here. Your read is skewed and angry.
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