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Defeated

orenhazi.com

231–240 of 445 posts

Re: Defeated

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Extremely simple?" There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people. 1) Barriers to work and emigration 2) Language barriers - I know that learning a new language isn't impossible (I know a little Spanish but I'd hardly call myself fluent), but I speak only English fluently, which limits me to a handful of nations, many of which are nearly as bad as the United States (hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?…

On the other hand, at the moment you are still free to leave. You might not be so lucky if you wait.

I see where you're coming from. Reminds one of "refuseniks" and modern-day China's queasiness about its people leaving.

But there's always going to be more people who want in than out, and I don't think there's ever be point anywhere in the near future in which this is going to change...

Re: Defeated

#232
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further to that, once you can no longer travel in your own country without being strip searched it means, as the article puts it, that the terrorists have won. It's a test and a defense of freedom.

The terrorists don't win if people in America lose rights. Wtf? Terrorists win if they don't turn into terrorists in the first place but live normal happy lives in their countries, maintaining a mild disdain for the decadent west while admiring the nice parts, like freedom and wealth. The radicalization surely has many roots, one of them being real and imagined pressure from the West. I propose looking into that aspe…

I think you've missed his point. I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think it's not a useful response here.

On of Osama bin Laden's stated goals was to bankrupt the US. For $1m or so in initial investment, he's gotten us to waste a trillion or so on a pointless Iraq adventure. The TSA has only cost us $100bn or so, not counting the countless hours and energy lost waiting in line and performing pointless rituals.

But more broadly, he's a terrorist. As the name suggests, the goal is to create fear. And the TSA is a giant institutionalization of that fear. It's only scared people who give up their rights. The TSA is both a response to fear and a creator of fear, and having scared this guy into compliance, they have done their job.

Re: Defeated

#233

There is an extremely simple solution: leave. I've not lived in the US for almost two years now. I've only had to travel back twice in that time. Meanwhile, in the same time I've visited France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany multiple times. None of those travel experiences were nearly as unpleasant or stressful as my two trips to the US. Furthermore, the technology communities that are growing up in these pla…

"Extremely simple?" There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people. 1) Barriers to work and emigration 2) Language barriers - I know that learning a new language isn't impossible (I know a little Spanish but I'd hardly call myself fluent), but I speak only English fluently, which limits me to a handful of nations, many of which are nearly as bad as the United States (hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?…

#2

I wouldn't consider that to be a huge barrier, necessarily.

The best way to learn a language, and overcome language barriers, is just to move there. Not to wait until you've got the language. Because, honestly? - If you're not speaking it every day, maintaining reasonable fluency is very difficult. You can't get to that sort of skill just putting in a couple of hours here and there in a piecemeal fashion. Even with the best of intentions, how many hours a day do you speak your new language?

The same factors that work against you in your own country work for you in another's though: It's not that hard to learn a new one if your old one is not particularly dominant in your life. When you, by necessity, go from practising a few hours a week to 12-15 hours every day; while being exposed to excellent speakers of the language, while being heavily incentivised to advance (because, hey, if you don't you'll be lonely and vulnerable) ; you get better at what you're doing very quickly.

So, I wouldn't be too bothered about getting the language particularly nailed down before moving somewhere - provided, of course, you don't immediately need to be working or something. If you do, then hiring a tutor and drilling the basics of the language in first is a good idea - you can get vastly superior results that way than by taking classes with others (who may not be as serious about it as you.)

Re: Defeated

#234

There is an extremely simple solution: leave. I've not lived in the US for almost two years now. I've only had to travel back twice in that time. Meanwhile, in the same time I've visited France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany multiple times. None of those travel experiences were nearly as unpleasant or stressful as my two trips to the US. Furthermore, the technology communities that are growing up in these pla…

"Extremely simple?" There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people. 1) Barriers to work and emigration 2) Language barriers - I know that learning a new language isn't impossible (I know a little Spanish but I'd hardly call myself fluent), but I speak only English fluently, which limits me to a handful of nations, many of which are nearly as bad as the United States (hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?…

>hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?

The vast majority of CCTV cameras in the UK are privately owned, on private property. What is the problem here? I don't know where this "surveillance state" idea came from but it's largely a myth.

Re: Defeated

#235
post #87
post #39

The terrorists have won. I don't think the terrorists won, they just provided the push. The commercial interests and their lobbyists have won. And by that, I mean they continue to win.

No, the author is correct. The terrorist have won. ter·ror·ism [ter-uh-riz-uhm] noun 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes. 2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization. co·erce [koh-urs] verb (used with object), co·erced, co·erc·ing. 1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire…

This may not be key to your argument, but keep in mind that there's no working definition of terrorism.

Different nations, even different bodies of the US military use semantically different definitions. Resolutions to decide on a working definition of terrorism are regularly shot down in the UN by security council veto. It's not meant to be a real word.

Re: Defeated

#236

What happens if someone steals your laptop from the table at the end of the conveyor? Does TSA have any liability since the laptop was taken from your possession by them?

So, they do not have a token system at all? Almost every other airport has a simple tokened system where one gets a token for their belongings, goes through the checks, reaches the other end and hands the token back and collects their belongings. Such a simple thing. Seen it in Changi (Singapore) and KL. The TSA dudes never thought simple thing?

Re: Defeated

#237
I was once a great fighter for freedom, democracy, and civil liberties. I battled the system long and hard. Then one day out of a hundred similar travel days, I had to wait 30 minutes for a TSA pat down, probably because a single TSA manager was not following procedure. I realize some great freedom fighters would at least file an official complaint, but I also realized that if one manager one time can make me wait 30 minutes, the terrorists have already won. I surrendered my principles to the police state.

If I had known how hard this fight would be, that a mere mortal man as me would have to wait 30 minutes for a pat down, might even have to miss a flight or submit to a scan and then file a complaint, I never would have become such a great freedom fighter. Fortunately, my ignorance of such trials allowed me to boldly enter the resistance, even if my warrior days were cut short and I failed to fight past 30 minutes of standing on a mat. 30 minutes - what man could be expected to endure this in the name of human liberty?

Re: Defeated

#238

I just don't get the deal with the millimeter wave scanners. Did everyone raise a fuss like this when airports had you walk through metal detectors? How is a millimeter wave scanner different than a high-tech metal detector? Aren't we always talking about how the law needs to "catch up to technology?" Don't get me wrong, I think the TSA is a huge waste of money and I hate being ordered around by flunkies who can't ge…

That's not a metal detector, it's a system designed to scan for tagged items. My problem with the scanners is that they are invasive AND ineffective. They aren't protecting me, but they do train me to complacently subject myself as an innocent, not-charged-with-a-crime citizen to pre-emptive searches. That's just not alright by me.

So invasive you'd rather have a guy grab your junk?

Re: Defeated

#239

There is an extremely simple solution: leave. I've not lived in the US for almost two years now. I've only had to travel back twice in that time. Meanwhile, in the same time I've visited France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany multiple times. None of those travel experiences were nearly as unpleasant or stressful as my two trips to the US. Furthermore, the technology communities that are growing up in these pla…

"Extremely simple?" There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people. 1) Barriers to work and emigration 2) Language barriers - I know that learning a new language isn't impossible (I know a little Spanish but I'd hardly call myself fluent), but I speak only English fluently, which limits me to a handful of nations, many of which are nearly as bad as the United States (hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?…

To jballanc's credit I think it really is extremly simple in theory, if you are OK with the excrucingly expensive route:

1) Barriers to work and emigration

Not if you have enough money or a high enough level of education and income. Paying a lawyer to iron out some problems can help avoiding some traps too.

2) Language barriers

These can be overcome, but not having to deal with a lot of menu details in your life (i.e "how to apply for family aid with the new flat I am trying to rent"), going to places that have english speaking staff, doing as much as you can online etc. simplifies it a lot. But it costs more overall.

3) A lot of us have family support systems

This is the most difficult point, and no amount of money will resolve some problems (adaptation, home sickness, culture etc). But others like schooling your kids in an international school (it's about 8000~10000 dollars a year at least I think), have someone speaking your language take care of them etc. eases things a lot.

I don't think this kind of money can be taken for granted, and only a smallish portion of people are at these levels of wealth[1]. It was just to bring a point about how "simple" changing a country could be depending on your means.

[1] Otherwise if you can get a company or country to pay for these expenses, it's great for you. BTW I'm far from having that kind of money, so it's just hearsay and personal research.

Re: Defeated

#240
post #100

Sorry, but I'm going to be the token "sheeple" here. Did you make such a fuss when you had to go through metal detectors? Did you make such a fuss when you were wanded? Did you make a fuss when you were carded (at the bar, or at the airport?) I think we should protest when the TSA is unprofessional and does not monitor their people and they do unprofessional things, (like circulate photos or make fun of people) but p…

Metal detectors, wanding, and carding actually accomplish the purposes they were each created for -- not perfectly, but to a large degree.

The body scanners, however, are a boondoggle.

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