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NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

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Re: NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either way: the original notion that NSA had direct access to the servers that actually operate Google Mail has been found to be unsupported by the evidence published thus far. Evidence being "Google denies it"?

And that The Guardian ran a story contradicting it, and that Marc Ambinder reported a story suggesting that PRISM was a dropbox system and not direct access, and that Declan McCullagh ran a story with sources saying that NSA does not have access to Google Mail, and the NYT running a story with an attached court order from the FISC showing Yahoo availing itself of the opportunity to try to deny NSA access to its serve…

And even more evidence that would take too long to summarize. is correct here.

Re: NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

#232
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No court order is required for NSA to issue directives under FISA. As far as I can see (IANAL) most forms of FISA order do require a court order. FAA 702 orders are issued by the government rather than the FISC court, but still have to be reviewed and approved by the FISC. It's just that the nature of the court's review affords no protection to non-resident aliens (except by chance). > For all intents and purposes…

As I understand it: FAA 702 certifications require FISC approval, but 702 directives don't; there's a 1:many relationship between certifications and directives, and directives are what companies see.

Yes, that seems to be the case.

Re: NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

#233
post #12

So that's not good. You can see how that could be happening; NSA has trunk-level access to telephony circuits. Telcos are engaged in a long-running game of footsie with the government that makes billion dollar Internet companies look like anarcho-capitalists. But I'm not seeing how we get from there to the contents of email. To have the email of arbitrary Americans without a warrant, the NSA would need direct access…

Dude. They have the content of email too. I'm going to make a wild guess here and assume it falls under the "required by law" category of the denials. Well, too bad for them, too bad for us. Welcome to the future, and there's scant chance that any of this will ever get rolled back.

Meanwhile, its also fairly obvious that some security folks sympathetic to the NSA have your ear. You like them, you respect their skills, and social heuristics dictate that you give their opinions due weight. They haven't been overly impressed with the recent leaks and reportage, and why not--we always bristle when the media covers something near and dear, and bristle again when it is sympathetic to the wrong parties.

Back to the contents of email again. How, precisely, it is done is of course very interesting but also an implementation detail. The fact is this kind of content would have been considered very valuable, and therefore effort would have been expended to a) explore the options and b) make it happen.

If you go back over the past few years of leaks, a recurring theme is, it has happened, and it appears to have been achieved via legal compulsion plus some fairly vanilla engineering. However, we may also assume that any serious collection effort would necessarily include redundancy of methods, so if for some reason legal compulsion were to end, the collection could still continue. And this is were we find ourselves today: legal collection at nominal risk, but the program itself secure.

And we know we are here, not from any one specific claim (possibly garbled, possibly wrong), but from the pointillist painting rendered by years of such claims, where the negative space provides as much structure as the positive. So yeah, you don't like Greenwald et al on aesthetic grounds. But Greenwald is also irrelevant to the overall narrative here, which is "when we became cognizant of our pervasive surveillance." Why would they not have the contents of email?

Re: NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

#234
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tptacek why are you always defending ridiculous statements and behavior by the US administration and spy agencies? You seem willing to bend over backwards (or is it forwards) to justify any statement from the authorities but will attack the tiniest issue in a fellow HNers post. Have you and/or your company ever worked for them? If so it would explain a lot.

We do no work whatsoever for the USG, or for any defense contractors. That's not an accident. There are other software security firms that do; Matasano does not. Once again: I am not sticking up for NSA. I do not trust NSA. I probably share your opinion of NSA, modulo I might not mythologize their capabilities as much as other people on HN do. I am sticking up for Google. I have friends who work there. I think very h…

When you say "that's not an accident" do you mean to imply you'd have ethical objections to it?

As you are one of the three most common defenders of the state that I have noticed on this site, that would be very surprising to me. But quite interesting if so, it would be some indication that your perspective on the issues and seeming constant defense is an indication of spiraling paranoia in counterparties to your arguments. Is this how you see it?

Re: NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

#235
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really unfortunate that most people read 1984 as teenagers (I did). I went back to it as an adult, somewhat expecting it to be a let down. What I found was quite the opposite, there's a lot more nuance in that book than would really be absorbed by high school students being forced to read it. "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you beg…

Do not stereotype teenagers. I am merely fifteen years old, and if you take a look through my comment thread you may find more insight than you expected. Yes, most in my generation are shallow and passive; but that doesn't mean all are. There are some intellectuals on the fringes.

You're not disagreeing with the parent. He's making a generalization about teenagers, not claiming a universal truth. I think you got needlessly defensive.

For what it's worth, I've been quite impressed with your post history to-date (and today is not the first time I've taken notice).

Re: NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two days ago you were arguing with a slide deck. At this point, you're also arguing with a NSA brief of Congress and numerous public statements by members of Congress. Swearing at me isn't the solution in any case. If you want to stop taking flack on HN, you should stop attacking the credibility of whistleblowers on the rhetorical basis that you know more about what the NSA is doing than the NSA does.

No. You're making an unfounded assumption, which is that the interpretation Glenn Greenwald and Barton Gellman took of that slide deck --- an interpretation Snowden appears to share --- is also what NSA believes to be the case about their access to Google's servers. It does not follow logically that because one interpretation of an NSA slide deck is that they have direct access to the servers operating Google Mail th…

Funny that you should mention moving goalposts. That seems to be the M.O. of the NSA apologists. First, the arguments is "It's not content. It's just metadata, which is no different from addresses on postal mail envelopes". That's already a terrible rationalization.

But, then, revelations come out that it is more than metadata being captured. It's actual call content and no warrant is required for a run of the mill "analyst" to listen to those calls.

So, now the goalpost is being moved to whether the NSA has "direct" or "indirect" accesss to gmail servers--a specious and inconsequential debate over some subjective semantics.

What will it take for the apologists to actually grow concerned about what's really happening here?

Re: NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

#237
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that The Guardian ran a story contradicting it, and that Marc Ambinder reported a story suggesting that PRISM was a dropbox system and not direct access, and that Declan McCullagh ran a story with sources saying that NSA does not have access to Google Mail, and the NYT running a story with an attached court order from the FISC showing Yahoo availing itself of the opportunity to try to deny NSA access to its serve…

And even more evidence that would take too long to summarize. is correct here.

How many times are you going to make this exact same comment? Just upvote him if you think he's so right.

Re: NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

#238
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an excellent summary, but also: that SFTP-like access almost certainly keeps happening, for that targeted account, after the initial request. Perhaps it happens hourly, or even faster when relevant account events (login, message-received, message-sent, voip-call) occur. For most of the world -- those who have never SSH'd into a machine, nor had machine 'root' access -- that rapid-batch-dump access stil…

The Guardian went out of its way to characterize the access not only as "direct" but "unilateral".

So what? The subject of this thread is that the NSA admitted that analysts can listen to the content of all of our phone calls without a warrant. We are having this discussion because the Snowden link put the NSA front and center.

Yet, you are arguing some mundane semantics?

Instead of smearing the people responsible for these revelations, why not try to focus on the big picture? That is, all of this is leading to long overdue appropriate dialogue, that is engaging our representatives in the oversight that is required to uphold our Constitution. Big picture!

Re: NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

#239
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really unfortunate that most people read 1984 as teenagers (I did). I went back to it as an adult, somewhat expecting it to be a let down. What I found was quite the opposite, there's a lot more nuance in that book than would really be absorbed by high school students being forced to read it. "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you beg…

Do not stereotype teenagers. I am merely fifteen years old, and if you take a look through my comment thread you may find more insight than you expected. Yes, most in my generation are shallow and passive; but that doesn't mean all are. There are some intellectuals on the fringes.

I think your subtlety missing the point - it wasn't a comment on current teenagers or even past teen generation, but a comment about how ones perception change with time. A different story emerges on reading it years later. It is more subtle and deeper than I initially appreciated. This happened to me also, and it completely changed my perception of the book re-reading it 15 or so years later. I may also have missed the point, but that's how I interpreted the comment.

Re: NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

#240
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A graf from Greenwald's original story: When the FAA was first enacted, defenders of the statute argued that a significant check on abuse would be the NSA's inability to obtain electronic communications without the consent of the telecom and internet companies that control the data. But the Prism program renders that consent unnecessary, as it allows the agency to directly and unilaterally seize the communications of…

The 1st sentence seems fine: the companies have no practical way to withhold consent. The phrasing "directly and unilaterally seize " seems exaggerated given the preponderance of current revelations and denials, but if Prism includes other not-yet-revealed acquisition methods, might still be substantially true. After all, the denials you're relying on are from company leaders who also said they've never heard of Pris…

> but if Prism includes other not-yet-revealed acquisition methods, might still be substantially true

Yes, but that's close to being a tautology: what outlandish claim might not turn out to be true if in future startling new revelations supported it? In fact, direct access in the NSA-has-root sense is less likely in light of the PRISM slides: why file 702 orders and dicker with webco lawyers if you're able and willing to get whatever you want through some kind of back channel? Why create a Top Secret overview and training resource for Internet surveillance and apparently not mention this backdoor?

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