EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5 • Hacker News Board

Re: EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5

#231

Post by pornel » Thu, May 30, 2013, 12:16 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #186

josteink wrote: post #180

This DRM proposition definitely needs all the resistance it can get. We cannot allow DRM into our wonderful, open standards. This is not an option. Not at any price. I'm honestly surprised that Mozilla haven't been more vocal about this issue. Have they issued any statements what so ever? Seeing what amazing things the web have enabled the last few decades, purely by being open, who are we to deny the future the same…

"Open standards" are about documenting interfaces in such a way as that any person could develop a compatible implementation, nothing more. There is already a massive amount of proprietary tech running the web. From internet explorer to the secret algorithms used by google. Pretending that the web is some hippy utopia is not accurate. This proposal simply describes a standard protocol for a DRM system to be able to t…

EME doesn't describe an interoperable standard. It's only a tiny JS interface for invoking proprietary, deliberately unspecified CDM plug-ins (that are protected by DMCA, so you can't use them even if you knew how).

It's as if you wrote spec for `` tag and said Silverlight is now a W3C Recommendation.

That's even a step back from Silverlight today, because at least it has de-facto NPAPI standard interface that CDMs don't.

Re: EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5

#232

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, May 30, 2013, 12:23 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #228

jiggy2011 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just disable the plugins or don't install them in the first place.

Thats a horrible solution to suggest. It's like suggesting that people go buy body armor to deal with crime. It non-scaling, do not address the issue, and leaves those most vulnerable exposed. Malware like to target those that are willing to spend money online. That mean those people who are most targeted are also those who won't disable the plugins that makes them vulnerable to attack in the first place. W3C should…

For whatever reason Big Media aren't going to allow you access to their content without the DRM. Not adding support for this standard will not change that.

If you have Silverlight installed or play big budget games from Steam/Origin etc the odds are that your system is already full of DRM crap.

Ultimately either consumers need to reject DRM or the media companies have to decide not to use it. However at the moment people seem quite happy to install it, so W3C are just making their lives marginally easier.

Re: EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5

#233

Post by vetinari » Thu, May 30, 2013, 12:25 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #227

Daiz wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you don't have a permission to do so, you're basically 'circumventing' DRM which is illegal under copyright laws in many countries around the world.

Why would I need permission to implement my own CDM? I would not be circumventing unless I attempted to reverse engineer someone elses.

Is for implementing someone's other CDM. It's the "your browser is great, but I cannot watch Hulu in it, therefore it is unusable" scenario.

Re: EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5

#234

Post by vetinari » Thu, May 30, 2013, 12:26 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #213

josteink wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean you are free to implement a second class citizen on this new, closed down and Hollywood-driven web. Yeah. That sounds really sexy. That sounds like the pinnacle of achievements for open standards.

Hollywood does not have jurisdiction over the majority of web. They cannot force you to use DRM.

They can lock you out, when you are not using DRM.

Re: EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5

#235

Post by JonoW » Thu, May 30, 2013, 12:40 PM UTC

I hear lots of objection to DRM in HTML but no alternatives. If EME is rejected and not added to the HTML spec, lets consider some alternatives:

1. Leave things as they are, so Flash and Silverlight limp along to serve DRMed content, and native apps are required to watch on devices which don't support plugins. Verdict: Not great, but hey it's how it is now.

2. Lobby the media owners to drop DRM. Verdict: Highly improbable

3. Lobby the media distributers (Netflix etc) to boycott media owners who won't drop DRM. Verdict: Highly improbable

4. Ask end-users to boycott purchase of un-DRMed content (and no pirate it, as they will only encourage the media owners to use more DRM). Verdict: Highly improbable. Us nerds may do it, but regular folk don't really care about DRM.

5. EME is implemented as a convention, but not in the official spec. Verdict: Possible, I think EME will be implemented in IE and Chrome with or without it being in the spec. Mozilla wouldn't I presume.

Can anyone think of any others?

Re: EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5

#236

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, May 30, 2013, 12:42 PM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #233

jiggy2011 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I need permission to implement my own CDM? I would not be circumventing unless I attempted to reverse engineer someone elses.

Is for implementing someone's other CDM. It's the "your browser is great, but I cannot watch Hulu in it, therefore it is unusable" scenario.

Why would you implement it yourself? Just integrate this standard and now your browser can talk to Hulu's CDM.

Re: EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5

#237

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, May 30, 2013, 12:42 PM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #234

jiggy2011 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hollywood does not have jurisdiction over the majority of web. They cannot force you to use DRM.

They can lock you out, when you are not using DRM.

They can only lock you out of their content (as they are already doing). They can't lock you out of HN for example.

Re: EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5

#238

Post by Daiz » Thu, May 30, 2013, 12:53 PM UTC

JonoW wrote: post #235

I hear lots of objection to DRM in HTML but no alternatives. If EME is rejected and not added to the HTML spec, lets consider some alternatives: 1. Leave things as they are, so Flash and Silverlight limp along to serve DRMed content, and native apps are required to watch on devices which don't support plugins. Verdict: Not great, but hey it's how it is now. 2. Lobby the media owners to drop DRM. Verdict: Highly impro…

We leave things as they are. If content distributors refuse to play without DRM, let them stick to inconvenient existing plugins. The DRM-insisting gatekeepers will ultimately need the web more than the web needs them, so they'll have to concede eventually, even if it takes a good while before it happens.

Re: EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5

#239

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, May 30, 2013, 12:58 PM UTC

JonoW wrote: post #235

I hear lots of objection to DRM in HTML but no alternatives. If EME is rejected and not added to the HTML spec, lets consider some alternatives: 1. Leave things as they are, so Flash and Silverlight limp along to serve DRMed content, and native apps are required to watch on devices which don't support plugins. Verdict: Not great, but hey it's how it is now. 2. Lobby the media owners to drop DRM. Verdict: Highly impro…

Ask browser vendors to include an authorization dialog before installing a CDM which describes what the CDM can do so that they can make an informed choice.

"The site xxx.com wants to install a module on your computer, this module has been signed by acme inc. Installing this module may be a requirement for consuming protected media from xxx.com.

In order to prevent you from circumventing policy; this module needs to make modifications to your computer as detailed in the license agreement (read here). These modifications will allow acme inc to read files on your computer, disable parts of your computer's functionality as specified by policy Z and may send personal information gathered to Acme Inc or selected partners

Allow?

Ok/Cancel

"

Re: EFF Makes Formal Objection to DRM in HTML5

#240

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, May 30, 2013, 1:03 PM UTC

Daiz wrote: post #238

JonoW wrote: post #235

I hear lots of objection to DRM in HTML but no alternatives. If EME is rejected and not added to the HTML spec, lets consider some alternatives: 1. Leave things as they are, so Flash and Silverlight limp along to serve DRMed content, and native apps are required to watch on devices which don't support plugins. Verdict: Not great, but hey it's how it is now. 2. Lobby the media owners to drop DRM. Verdict: Highly impro…

We leave things as they are. If content distributors refuse to play without DRM, let them stick to inconvenient existing plugins. The DRM-insisting gatekeepers will ultimately need the web more than the web needs them, so they'll have to concede eventually , even if it takes a good while before it happens.

Why do they need the web? If the only way to watch Game of Thrones is to install a standalone application then people will simply install the standalone application.