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"Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

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Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#231
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with those customers. That's like saying "building a car is not hard, building a real car that you can use and that passes regulation is". IOW, writing code is hard in every reasonable context.

How many programmers operate under that kind of regulatory and operational constraint regime? I think most don’t. (In interesting ways this is programming’s greatest boon and curse: if we treated it more like building bridges or cars, the world would be a very different place.)

While there are for sure a lot of programming jobs that don't touch anything "important", like making dime a dozen websites or apps, I think you underestimate the number of things that need some form of higher quality control.

The level of quality needed (or imposed) will vary. It is a wide spectrum from dealing with banking/transactions (money at risk) to brake controllers and auto pilots (human lives at risk). But there is a lot of this, all over the world.

I work somewhere in the middle (rather slow but extremely heavy industrial equipment, where emergency stop is always a safe if costly option). There are domains where emergency stop is not a thing though: some systems on an aircraft in flight, a pacemaker, etc.

My point is though, that there is a ton of code where stakes are higher than "oops, I guess we will fix it next sprint". And while not all of that have regulatory constraints, sometimes a company realises that the financial cost of issues significant enough that it is worth holding themselves to higher standards anyway.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#232
post #13

The answer to all these "if coding is easy" questions is that coding isn't programming (to put it in Lamport's terms). Encoding your ideas into a programming language is easy. Understanding that your ideas are bad is hard. You have clients with multiple devices connecting to your backend simultaneously, while you mediate their interactions with your partner systems. Their versions might not be up to date. It's a dist…

LLMs can write TLA+ models just fine. It can help even with small mobile apps. Surprisingly, simple TLA models were able to find design/workflow issues almost in every of a few vibe-coded apps I've tried on vacation.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#233
post #193
post #62

Everybody saying "coding was never the hard part" is really telling on themselves. Coding was never "hard" because most organizations were absolutely unwilling to take on any technical work that was hard. That tells us about business strategy and culture rather than anything about the fundamentals of programming or technical work. The real conclusion is that programming is such a high-leverage activity that even tech…

> But also, there still is a ton of programming that is fundamentally difficult. That's not going anywhere either. And LLMs are useful there too, but they're currently nowhere near replacing the expertise needed to do novel and non-trivial technical work. Genuine question and not trying to be snarky here, I am actually curious: what fields or types of programming does this apply too? I think I've read anecdotes onlin…

LLMs are surprisingly bad at basic CMake, but i don't see why they should be.

Much of the truly LLM-difficult code is probably hiding in the libraries we import. Database engines, compilers, efficient data parser, control theory, signal processing, protocol implement-ions, or anything with a 12000 page German ISO standard that need to pass a $12.000 certification lab. But this also compose of such a tiny fraction of programmers or code in the world.

A-lot of my work lies in that last one... but that's also where that "code is easy, knowing what to code isn't" is the most true; because industrial standards tend to not spare any expense on the word count, while the implementation is a ~2000 row state machine. I've not yet found an LLM capable of successfully parsing this kind of specification documents, but it's possible they will reach there eventually.

But i do feel online debate do clump the software field a bit too much when AI is discussed. JavaScript compose probably 98% of all code the LLMs are trained on since it's powering every website scraped for training. As such, people in web-development seem to have far more praise to LLM capability than i'm able to give.

My personal AI experience has been very mixed in comparison, regularly making up functions of common libraries, hallucinate the description of technical terms, straight up writing un-compilable c-code, or get confused by relatively small code-bases. Useful but not majorly changing my work at the moment (pretty good at comments, test cases, or as google replacement).

Granted, I've only tried models up to Opus 4.8, and not had experience with the newest "tier" of models with Fable, Kimi K3 or GPT 5.6; but the prices on those are also starting to compete badly with my salary at the moment.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#234
post #47
post #9

> If coding is easy, how come programmers were in high demand, and have demanded large salaries for years (even before ZIRP)? Because programmers have generally been forced to wear additional, invisible hats that are essential to making the code happen in the first place. Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with t…

> Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with those customers. That's like saying "building a car is not hard, building a real car that you can use and that passes regulation is". IOW, writing code is hard in every reasonable context.

90% of code wouldn't pass a basic audit, let alone any sort of regulatory scrutiny. Developers are building the easy version most of the time.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#235
Microsoft did research on this and it was found that only 14% of time was writing code.*

That 14% might have been hard, but it is definitely still the smallest part of being an engineer.

* https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/...

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#236
post #72

I believe there are some programming jobs in which the code is absolutely the easier part. Not all of us work in signal processing, integrated systems or have to push upstream to Linux kernel because the company we work for really needs a memory allocation optimization for its data centers. Navigating customer requirements and building something that satisfies both market's needs and company strategy can be an incred…

IDK, a sufficiently complex consumer or enterprise app winds up having big performance problems if people don't know what they're doing w.r.t. the code they write and how they connect systems together with that code. Those performance problems start out not mattering much, first it impacts one seldom-used part of the site, then another, but that chips away at users and can eventually tank the product. That doesn't ev…

You've really seen a web software product die because of performance issues?

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#237
post #72

I believe there are some programming jobs in which the code is absolutely the easier part. Not all of us work in signal processing, integrated systems or have to push upstream to Linux kernel because the company we work for really needs a memory allocation optimization for its data centers. Navigating customer requirements and building something that satisfies both market's needs and company strategy can be an incred…

IDK, I worked like in ~20 enterprises and I didn't really see what you describe.

"Navigating customer requirements" is mostly everyone speculating on customer needs and pushing the part they own, and whoever happens to get closer to the higher management's ear, wins. Then market decides if that's is a good thing or bad thing. If it's good, normally the person who pushed this doesn't even receive credit for it, because either the command chain too long or the stakeholder's memory too short and postfactum everyone pretends they authored good decisions and opposed bad ones.

It might be tiresome and exhausting, like all intense politics, but it's not hard in any technical sense. Most mediocre people can do it and do it.

For something to be hard and complex you need rules and professionals on all levels who understand and follow the rules and driven by meritocracy alone. That's simply never the case.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all the stuff that the frontier labs are going to ship by default next year. Except for the architecture specifications, which agents can already do adequately for most system today.

Do you have a source for that claim?

Why wouldn't they be working on better harnesses? Every feature that has gotten popular has gotten integrated.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#239

I agree, the whole 'developers don't code' AI defense was pretty ridiculous. I also concur that development is going to get a lot harder. Anyone that has successfully used AI coding tools knows that you can get massive productivity increases but now I have to figure out how to get a bunch of hyper active child like coding entities with memory deficiencies to build stuff without going off the rail and introducing mass…

No one seems to mind the quality drop though. The buyers of this stuff could never discern.

They do. Most economically viable software already exists today, most people's job is to make .1% improvements, and features on top. For this work it's obviously pivotal that any change should not worsen the existing software, as that instantly nullifies the value of improvements.

Another kind of highly valuable software is a new design which digitizes some process, like the ticket management of a rail company. If you don't follow the internal processes and workings of the firm exactly, or you do not interface with existing systems 100% accurately, your software very soon becomes worthless.

Figuring out how to create a piece of code that solves the exact problem the customer has, while not breaking anything, and fitting into existing operations seems to be a big head scratcher still, and something humans still need to do, at least that was my experience so far with LLMs.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#240
post #72

I believe there are some programming jobs in which the code is absolutely the easier part. Not all of us work in signal processing, integrated systems or have to push upstream to Linux kernel because the company we work for really needs a memory allocation optimization for its data centers. Navigating customer requirements and building something that satisfies both market's needs and company strategy can be an incred…

Yes, I resonate with this and the article above. I think 80% of a SWE's job is to communicate with the XFN partners (either gathering requirements, pushing back, managing up, collaborations, etc) and then plan out the actual coding (gather code pointers, look at past code, plan architecture, talk to the team). The last 10% is the coding. And then the other 10% is the maintenance of that and past code (which honestly…

I feel like almost every standout product in the world was a result of someone with good instincts and not the results of XFN communication.

Unfortunately it is still the job...

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