Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 1001 posts

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#231

Post by akersten »

peyton wrote: post #225
abofh wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody figured out how to make the trial profitable! I don't really feel bad about anyone here, they were subsidizing to get people hooked, someone turned the subsidies into profit when they got selective pricing mode enabled, it was always going to be arbitrage. But the winner is the guy in the middle in a jurisdiction that will likely be judgement proof, because everything they capture, both input and out, and if…

I don’t follow your reasoning. It is foreign to me. You talk about winners, but this is clearly fraud.

Fraud?

Anthropic sells some undisclosed and ever-changing number of tokens for $200, the customer uses those tokens. If there's any fraud here, it's that the $200 next month is silently worth fewer tokens than the last.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#232

Post by dannyw »

thadk wrote: post #51

Does anyone have hints on what kinds of prompts are most used for a distillation like this—SWE-Bench sorts of things? Is reconstructing the compressed knowledge in the model like reconstructing a lossy JPG or MP3 a reasonable analogy?

RLAIF is a good place to start reading.

Claude will also help you with (mostly good advice) if you ask something like “Research and help me make the most effective plan to train a smaller student model to be better from a teacher model”.

I actually was doing an experiment with a GLM->Gemma E4B for fun, and Claude kept on suggesting I should also add Claude Opus as a teacher lol, suggesting techniques I haven’t heard of like thinking inversion (train a small model to deconstruct summarised thinking into detailed native thinking format of the student).

So I can absolutely see and understand the concern around Fable’s frontier LLM development mitigations, but their approach of silently degrading is completely wrong and dangerous.

AI classifiers, like all AI, can make mistakes, and it’d only be a matter of time before it mis-fires and silently sabotaging a university’s HPC cluster for physics simulations or something because the shape looks like DeepSeek or whatnot to a dumb fast classifier.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#233

Post by akersten »

yokisan wrote: post #224
tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

One would think Anthropic could point Mythos at this to solve the reseller problem outright: - Purchase multiple accounts via resellers - Send messages that contain a UID - Capture these in Anthropic's logs - Shut down account. Use any metadata to identify related accounts /loop

This, just like blanking out a football stream for a split second to binary search and find IPTV rebroadcasters, is far too good a solution. Suits prefer to make it seem like their job of fighting "misuse" is hard, justify their budget, continued existence of the trust & safety department, face scans, etc.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#234

Post by [deleted] »

yokisan wrote: post #224
tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

One would think Anthropic could point Mythos at this to solve the reseller problem outright: - Purchase multiple accounts via resellers - Send messages that contain a UID - Capture these in Anthropic's logs - Shut down account. Use any metadata to identify related accounts /loop

[deleted]

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#235

Post by NetOpWibby »

yokisan wrote: post #224
tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

One would think Anthropic could point Mythos at this to solve the reseller problem outright: - Purchase multiple accounts via resellers - Send messages that contain a UID - Capture these in Anthropic's logs - Shut down account. Use any metadata to identify related accounts /loop

They could be doing this internally and want to see if they can downright eliminate these loopholes before bringing Fable back.

I don't care how they do it, I just want to use Fable again.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#236

Post by dualvariable »

gruez wrote: post #140
gaiagraphia wrote: post #115

This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win. Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?

>This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. Yeah, like all those Chinese bootleggers selling DVDs for a few dollars rather than $20. Free market! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48664814

"Information wants to be free"

Anthropic profited from training its models on all kinds of copyrighted information, live by the sword, die by the sword...

Their model weights, training data, training methods, etc are all going to leak to China over time.

Nobody on a site named _Hacker_ news should be all that upset about this.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#237

Post by _carbyau_ »

XenophileJKO wrote: post #188
Mistletoe wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI was always going to be a race to the bottom and low margins. It’s why I’m extremely bearish on AI as an investment. It’s framed as some high margin business when it’s really going to end up like your toilet paper at Costco. You will use whatever is cheapest and gets the job done.

I used to think this.. but I think my opinion is changing. The reason is that the leaders likely will be able to accelerate faster. So what you see is the market "stretching".. the bottom getting cheaper and the top end running away and getting more expensive. At some point the top end may be too valuable to even sell access to.

The issue is who is going to pay for access?

The model has to be sold for cheaper than the value it adds.

Or your customers will bleed out financially.

EDIT: rethought entire premise.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#238

Post by lovich »

nonethewiser wrote: post #34
tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

Thats pretty crazy. This kind of thing jeopardizes Claude Max.

That is pretty crazy, almost like how Claude and all the other models are jeopardizing other businesses without paying for their training data and wiping their ass with robots.txt

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#239

Post by InvertedRhodium »

gruez wrote: post #140
gaiagraphia wrote: post #115

This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win. Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?

>This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. Yeah, like all those Chinese bootleggers selling DVDs for a few dollars rather than $20. Free market! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48664814

And those darned printing presses distributing works that were written prior to their existence.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#240

Post by gowld »

UltraSane wrote: post #151
m-ee wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never did. In debt the first 5000 years Geaeber makes the case that pure “free market” trade has never really existed in “the west”. The closest to this ideal that’s ever happened was during the Islamic golden age enabled by religious prescriptions against usury.

Without interest why would anyone loan money? Even the Islamic banking alternatives all just hide the interest charges.

That's not true. Islamic finance forbids indefinitely growing interest. Sharia finance agreements involve fixed fees or equity shares. Late penalties can be collected but must be donated, not profit. In all cases, the borrower never owes to the lender for the lender to keep more an a fixed amount determined at the strat.
Post reply on HN