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Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

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Re: Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

#231
post #30

Ultimately, there’s a sort of homeostasis in people’s tolerance for crime. If you need video evidence for prosecution, those who want it prosecuted will produce video cameras. If you make warrants impossible to produce in a timely manner, the camera search will be warrant exempted. Attempts to damage state power to ensure crime isn’t prosecuted will be likely met with methods that are immune to them. Given the constr…

> If you need video evidence for prosecution, those who want it prosecuted will produce video cameras. If you make warrants impossible to produce in a timely manner, the camera search will be warrant exempted.

That's the legislator's fallacy. "Something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do this."

Suppose you address the problem in other ways, e.g. improve the economy and reduce poverty so there is less crime, or reform the laws so that we're not providing violent gangs with funding sources by criminalizing the consensual behavior of adults.

Warrantless surveillance is not the only option and it's a bad one.

> Attempts to damage state power to ensure crime isn’t prosecuted will be likely met with methods that are immune to them.

This has the same shape as "attempts to enforce the law will be likely met with methods that are immune to it".

Government agencies are going to buck attempts to hold them accountable for abuse. The goal is to make their attempts ineffective, not to throw up our hands because doing it right isn't easy.

Or let's turn your reasoning against itself: We have a law against the police misusing surveillance, so then all the cameras should be destroyed as the backlash against the police violating the law, right? Either your argument is sound and we should get on with destroying all the cameras because the police are breaking the law and we'll just have to use other means to deal with other people breaking other laws, or people are actually willing to tolerate a significant amount of lawbreaking, and then we should get on with destroying all the cameras because they're dangerous and the claim that we can't because people won't tolerate the law going unenforced is empirically deficient.

Re: Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

#232

The fact police can go in and just look at camera footage without warrant proves your point precisely, officers have used it to stalk family members, etc.

This type of thing is definitely real. A friend of mine went on a date with an NYPD cop back in the 90s. She refused a second date, and the stalking began. It wasn't 'tech stalking', like today, but the cop started asking interrogating questions to her landlord and co-workers; she started getting weird/false parking tickets, etc. The only way she made it stop was that her cousin was a veteran with NYPD, and well, he…

Young stalking cop should have been charged and kicked off the force. Already proved they're incapable of handling even basic adult responsibilities, so police powers should be kept well it off such a person's reach.

I doubt any of that happened though.

Re: Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

#233
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people simply don't see themselves as being in zero-sum contests with the police. If you are in such a contest, those videos you've watched are quite useful and important. But when there's a hit and run on your block, expect your neighbors to go out of their way to volunteer information to the police. I've read threads here where people have made impassioned arguments that you yourself should never volunteer inf…

> Most people simply don't see themselves as being in zero-sum contests with the police. Yes, that is why they don't do it. It does not mean the advice is "terminally online". It is the advice coming from layers that deal with the system. Layers saying those things, online and offline, are not terminally online.

No, but online is where you see this advice being most commonly posted and repeated. Second-most might be in lawyer's offices, but a) most people don't interact with lawyers, especially not in the context of criminal investigations, and b) the lawyers themselves have a distorted view of this system, because they are almost always dealing with people who, for one reason or another, should not talk to the police.

Re: Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

#234
It should go without saying that all humans are flawed, regardless of their training, their uniform, their position in society.

The local pedohunters group dumpen.se in Sweden actually caught a cop trying to meet a fictional 14 year old, and the cop used his access to public CCTV to check the meeting point before going there.

Re: Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

#235
post #30

Ultimately, there’s a sort of homeostasis in people’s tolerance for crime. If you need video evidence for prosecution, those who want it prosecuted will produce video cameras. If you make warrants impossible to produce in a timely manner, the camera search will be warrant exempted. Attempts to damage state power to ensure crime isn’t prosecuted will be likely met with methods that are immune to them. Given the constr…

An unsolved crime is much less serious than a crime committed using state apparatus, though.

Re: Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

#236
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people simply don't see themselves as being in zero-sum contests with the police. If you are in such a contest, those videos you've watched are quite useful and important. But when there's a hit and run on your block, expect your neighbors to go out of their way to volunteer information to the police. I've read threads here where people have made impassioned arguments that you yourself should never volunteer inf…

Surely there's more interesting conversation to be had here than just "your opinions about interacting with law enforcement are moot because I know people in my Chicago neighbourhood who disagree with them."

The main contention seems to be 'surely everyone knows you shouldn't talk to the police' and 'no, quite a lot of people believe the opposite, but it's not as common to see that belief online', with a bit of this being conflated with whether this belief is accurate or not.

Re: Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only we had an amendment in the original bill of rights that drew the line here.

The 4th amendment doesn’t really have much of anything to say about public surveillance; the courts have largely agreed it does not constitute a search unless it reveals information that is not intended to be public (such as the thermal imaging of buildings) or reveals intimate personal information (such as documentation of habits through long term data aggregation).

> (such as documentation of habits through long term data aggregation)

Don't ALPRs do exactly this?

Re: Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

#238
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also build systems that require secondary approvals without needing approval escalation up the chain. Creeping on women is a lot less likely if you need a peer or even a subordinate to review what you're doing.

They will just find some other creepy friend that will sign off without looking, in exchange for them getting the same treatment. It needs to go to a different system, with different priorities, but even then we know of corrupt judges rubber stamping warrants. Why dont we have a AI verify that each search is tied to a real case, and if its not block their access and they now have to go before a judge to explain why t…

This isnt even AI, its just basic control acess or whatever.

The same or a similar thing already exists with doctors and nurses, particularly when a celebrity patient comes round. Not your patient/zero nexus for you to be involved in accessing their private medical charts?

Out you go

Re: Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct: "never talk to the police" is a very online belief. I watch people talk to police all the time . People go out of their way to do it. I don't even know what to do with the "never date police officers" thing. Most police officers are married. It's a shift-work job, so they have high divorce rates, but they just remarry.

Saying never talk to the police is an 'online belief' is frankly baffling. There are multiple examples of prominent law professors bringing in ex-police professionals who all say the exact same thing: never talk to the police. If you spend five minutes around a lawyer they will say the same thing. If you ever end up finding yourself in legal turmoil it is the very first thing a lawyer will directly advise you to do.…

Multiple? I only ever see that one guy's video linked.

Re: Flock-Powered Police Chiefs Stalking Women Shows Why Warrants Are Needed

#240

Scott Adams' had a great line: "Whenever people have the opportunity to commit fraud and there is no monitoring, you can assume they are committing fraud."

I sometimes think of this from the other direction.

Don't put people in situations of great temptation, like access to company cash with no oversight. They'll often fall for the temptation and ruin their lives in the process.

It's a slightly different framing from the "evil people will take advantage and get away with it" but they both lead to putting some kind of process in place to prevent abuse.

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