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American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

economist.com

231–240 of 360 posts

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#231

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> value is created by extracting money from a product Nope. It is created by creating something valuable that other people want to pay for. > value actually is created by the work it takes to create said product That's the Labor Theory of Value, which is a Marxist tenet and has been thoroughly discredited. For example, a CEO can decide to take Bunker Hill, or take Sausage Hill. If he picks the more profitable hill, h…

>He created more money xd sure thing

Yeah I don't think this is the place for you here.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inequality doesn't come from the creation of wealth so much as the destruction of it. Inflation and rising prices of staple goods (there is some covariance, but the latter seems to be outpacing the former) impact poor people disproportionately hard because staple goods are more or less fixed costs. The marginal utility of an extra dollar is much higher for someone on the poverty line vs. someone who is a multi-mi…

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> Inflation is caused by the government, not wealth creation. The US had zero net inflation from 1800-1914, despite incredible amounts of wealth creation. The inflation since 1914 is caused by government deficits.

> Government deficits are not caused by rich people. They're caused by the people you voted for.

I do not dispute this, but the deficit is exacerbated by a lack of tax revenue. Scrutiny will naturally move towards the people who are most able to fill the coffers.

> No, they're not. Their availability and price is determined by the Law of Supply and Demand.

I misspoke. What I meant to say is that the demand is fixed (i.e. inelastic). As you said, you can only eat so much - a poor person's subsistence will make up a much larger portion of their monthly budget than a that of a rich person.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#233
post #230

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https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2025/demo/p60-28... > I'm not American Yea I had a feeling. I'd caution you not to buy into the Internet doom and gloom. Most people retire on far less than 500k even and are doing just fine. Because the people that tend to live on less also live in the parts of the country where you can still buy a house for 100k.

Yes, so that link is the same one I gave you, and confirms you have your average and your median the wrong way around. > Most people retire on far less than 500k even and are doing just fine Soooo .... walking back all those claims about everyday folks being able to become millionaires just by showing up to work?

Didn't know walking back on basic math was a thing but here we are.

Please stop wasting eveyones time if you're gonna ignore a primary source after you asked for it.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#234

I would say with inflation, wealth inequality and skyrocketing housing, gas and grocery prices as well as super high amounts of consumer debt and families stretching to keep up it feels a lot like pre-bust 2005/2006 economy out there right now. We might not be on the cusp of a subprime mortgage bank crisis but it does feel ominous lately.

> wealth inequality Can you explain what is wrong with people having different levels of wealth? Or asked differently, if it is bad, should every individual have the exact same wealth?

Yes, this is easy to explain.

It creates a country nobody is willing to fight for. Beyond certain levels of inequality, you get systemic dysfunction.

Beyond a certain point, having a country where teeth are “luxury bones” and you have people putting off healthcare items due to cost isn’t sustainable. We’re past that point, and need to cut the rich down multiple pegs.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#235
post #74

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Walter, I believe the idea against wealth inequality is not purely that there are wealthier people but that their wealth should be redistributed such that the wealthier people are less wealthy (but still wealthier) and the poorer people are less poor (but still poorer).

There have been many attempts at taking from the rich and giving to the poor, and the result was always everybody was worse off except the people who ran the government.

The French had a few thoughts about this, back in the day.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#236

I would say with inflation, wealth inequality and skyrocketing housing, gas and grocery prices as well as super high amounts of consumer debt and families stretching to keep up it feels a lot like pre-bust 2005/2006 economy out there right now. We might not be on the cusp of a subprime mortgage bank crisis but it does feel ominous lately.

JFYI, consumer debt to GDP ratio is at the lowest level in a generation. There's really nothing at all concerning about household debt load and of all principal types of loans there is only one that is problematic: student loans. But it's just one out of many. Every other kind of debt is at historically low levels.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#237
post #216

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Almost in violent agreement. Disagree about the billionaire bit. Accumulates too much power too narrowly. Then one can subvert the market and rule of law. It seems the line lies somewhere between a hundred million and billion dollars at the current value of a dollar. I am happy and eager to make exceptions on a case by case basis if that billion dollars have been made in exchange of tangible goods and services.

I just see political influence as separate issue. Make sure they cannot lobby/donate (prison if they do) and problem solved. Why being tangiable so important? E.g. a billionare made it on physical music CD cs one made it on music streaming? As long as it's legal, why prioritize physical form?

That's too naive. Laws work differently once you have billions of dollars. They can and will be bent and politicians will be too happy to do that for you. It's win win for both.

Ignoring this aspect of the way the world works is living in a fantasy world, no less fantastic than a communist utopia.

Oh! I chose my word poorly. Streaming is very much "tangible" in the sense I had intended. "No regret transaction" is perhaps a better term than tangible, for the notion I am trying poorly to capture.

Let's take Walter Bright. I would love him to be a billionaire if he isn't one already. He made many delightful "goods", (to entertain oneself with and also to pay one's bills writing programs in a language so pleasant *). No party in the transaction would regret such a transaction, even in hindsight.

There are legal ways to accumulate wealth, however, without exchanging any goods and services. For example, HFT (ought to be called low latency rather than high frequency), speculation on the stock marketd. Derivative markets, for example, are zero sum, for one to win someone else has to lose. The wealth accumulated by such means has not been created, merely redistributed.

* Wish more companies used D though, so that it's actually feasible to earn your keep writing in D.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#238

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Then you are using terms in a manner that is effective for semantic victory, but not the spirit of actual discussion the other users are engaging in.

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Which would matter if you were even arguing markets correctly and the others were arguing marxist points.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#239
post #36

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If you're genuinely curious, a few suggestions that I personally found incredibly enlightening: Anand Giridhardas, Winners Take All: The book is fantastic, there's also his now infamous google talk where he talks about dismantling google: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d_zt3kGW1NM Thomas Piketty, Capital in the 21st century: Probably the most comprehensive (but at times also longwinded) outline on how wealth inequalit…

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Absurd to you here and now. Going to the Moon felt absurd to the contemporaries of Cyrano de Bergerac some 400 years ago. This did not stop him dreaming about it.

P.S. If anyone is interested, the Global Justice Report has been published today: https://globaljusticeproject.wid.world/

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your part in wealth creation is having your wealth acquired by somebody else. Wealth creation only works when the the money available to buy wealth creating instruments is significantly less than the value of those instruments. How would markets behave if investment accounts had more cash in them than there were investment vehicles? I suspect it would be like what we see today in private equity with illiquid fun…

> When your part in wealth creation is having your wealth acquired by somebody else. That's called "theft". In a free market, transactions are mutually agreed upon. Equal wealth for equal wealth. > Wealth creation only works when the the money available to buy wealth creating instruments is significantly less than the value of those instruments. Your statement presumes that "value" is some construct independent of th…

> That's called "theft". In a free market, transactions are mutually agreed upon. Equal wealth for equal wealth.

It's also called a Transaction with asymmetric information, or being in a position in an economic system where you cannot accumulate assets because the system is stacked against you.

I also think you're confusing wealth with value. Wealth is what you have; value is what you have is worth. You may have 50 billion in stock, but its value is what you can get away with Borrowing, spending, and dying.

> Your statement presumes that "value" is some construct independent of the market. The only "value" in commerce is what someone is willing to pay for it. There is no other useful definition of value.

But it is independent of the market. A company's stock is worth all of its assets divided by the number of shares. Anything else, such as anticipation of future earnings or expected losses, is a projection into the future. They don't exist until that moment arrives when the numbers have changed.

I learned a long time ago that the money's not real until the customer's check clears. We should be applying the same logic to valuing stocks and other financial instruments.

> As for how wealth is created, I buy a canvas and some paint for $50, and paint a masterpiece that Ritchie Rich buys from me for $10,000. I created that wealth. Taylor Swift figured out how to turn her song skillz into a billion dollars. She created that wealth. Musk figured out how to turn hunks of metal into rockets that are quite profitable. He created that wealth. And so on.

Elon Musk learned how to scam investors by selling them fantasies, projections, and wishes to raise money. But here's another way to create wealth. You ask for a loan. I give you the money and charge you interest. I did nothing, I made nothing, I just put an entry in a ledger, and all of a sudden, poof, wealth has appeared.

> Now that is a complex topic. But I'll make a simple take on it. When there is more cash than things to buy, then the value of the cash diminishes. We call that "inflation". Wealth creation does not cause inflation.

When too much money is chasing too few assets, and there is anxiety about the future, asset prices rise independent of fundamentals. Traders make increasingly poor decisions and take riskier bets to increase their portfolios' value. I've heard finance people describe this as the PE ratio as too high.

> As for private equity, nobody is making you invest in it.

If you have a pension, pension funds are one of the bigger investors in private equity, and you have no choice but to ride along with the fund's choices. The private equity industry is drooling at the thought of making a similar forced choice regarding employee 401 (k) plans.

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