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The Public Should Own Half of the Big A.I. Companies

sanders.senate.gov

231–240 of 290 posts

Re: The Public Should Own Half of the Big A.I. Companies

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean gen AI is based on theft, I don't really see that as a deterrent. I don't want the companies to exist, and having government ownership sounds like a convenient way to get bailed out when the bubble pops

That only is true if you agree with IP laws. China doesn’t, and you won’t be able to take 50% of the Chinese AI companies. American AI companies won’t be able to compete against Chinese ones if we take that stance.

This is why public ownership makes sense. The public allows AI to get the data that it would otherwise need to steal in order to be globally competitive, and in return, the company that builds the AI allows the public to own it.

Re: The Public Should Own Half of the Big A.I. Companies

#232
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am willing to surrender some property rights for a functional distributive society, pragmatically.

Some . Most of us are. That's what taxes are, in fact. We have private property rights, and we have to pay taxes. The hard-core anti-tax people try to make that a contradiction; most of the rest of us don't think of it that way, so their "taxation is theft" rhetoric falls flat. But I think it's important that we keep it at some . Major erosions of private property rights in order "to tax the rich" make me nervous, be…

That's fine, you can be nervous.

Seems like a slippery slope argument to forestall any practical positive change which doesn't directly immediately benefit you.

What's actually going to happen though, is every principled parasite at the top will fight tooth and nail to protect every principled right they have while for example the health care, infrastructure, and institutions decline, and they will happily support a fascist demagogue rather than give up those rights (on principles of course! Not on pesky reality).

This is not the first time around. Wealth concentrating policies rely on appealing to the middle class' fear that someone, somewhere will get a benefit that I won't. So principled!

And it works.

C.f. the discussion in Australia right now over whether increasing capital gains tax is 'fair'... The right is talking on principles, conveniently ignoring the massive tax breaks and regulatory capture that have resulted in huge measurable increases in wealth concentration, and justifying those spuriously as overall productivity increases. Principles for thee, pragmatism for me.

Re: The Public Should Own Half of the Big A.I. Companies

#233
post #37

People on HN generally love municipal broadband. For good reasons. It is almost without exception better than any of the national ISPs. Cheaper too. Municipal broadband is just 100% publicly-owned. That's what that means. When you have a national ISP, you might not get a service at all despite the ISP guaranteeing service in exchange for money from the state they've taken. You get a service that starts at $60 but som…

Besides economic and historical facts, I think one of the biggest reasons to flee municipal broadband is its liability to become a tool of government repression. What we're essentially proposing is that at the dusk of paper and analog media we want the government to be the provider of information and communication infrastructure. I'm reminded of a quote from Martin Niemöller.... Perhaps our Constitution would protect…

This is just a slippery slope fallacy and I'm honestly confused as to why it's so sticky. Are we really concerned about possible repression by Marquette, MI? And what would that look like exactly? Also, what are we comparing it to? Social media companies do untold amounts of repression.

My problem with this kind of argument is that it weights future hypothetical harm as more important than documented historical harm. Did we forget how Verizon FIOS throttled Netflix [1]? Also, what examples do we have of any municipal broadband in the US doing any kind of repression?

The truth here is that big companies are more complicit to government intervention than small ones are.

It's an odd quote to bring up because Niemoller was a concentration camp guard turned survivor who was arguing against inaction against the Nazis because it doesn't affect you, against being a bystander basically.

Are we really likening municipal broadband to the Holocaust? Really?

[1]: https://blog.flashrouters.com/2021/07/12/tired-netflix-throt...

Re: The Public Should Own Half of the Big A.I. Companies

#234
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather we have an alternative where you can buy Anthropic, OpenAI, SpaceX, etc stock but it has a few strict requirements: * Investors are committing to keeping their money over a 10 year period, and you pay them dividends * At the end of the 10 years you can withdraw it all, or keep your stock but withdraw the dividends, or keep your stock and reinvest the dividends for the next 10 years. * Companies cannot…

To buy stocks you need savings. 24% of Americans don't have any. Your scheme wouldn't benefit them. Or am I misreading it?

I wouldn't block any 401k plans from purchasing these stocks which would open those up to those safer dividend returns. The maintenance cost would be drastically lowered too since you're not buying and selling these so frequently.

Re: The Public Should Own Half of the Big A.I. Companies

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's a multimillionaire and I am not.

If your point is that you're trying to parrot Sanders' beliefs in a deliberately stupid way, it isn't working, because this isn't why he thinks the public should have a stake in how AI companies are being run. It's what you think he thinks after not having read the article.

Or maybe I honestly believe that all millionaires should be socially responsible, regardless of their political views.

Re: The Public Should Own Half of the Big A.I. Companies

#236
post #39

I strongly dislike the belief that people should be compensated when others find ingenious ways to profit off of publicly-available data. We live in a world where "creating value" (doing things that others find helpful) and "capturing value" (getting those people to pay you money) are two different things. If I give my mom a hug, I'm creating value, but that's not necessarily something I'm going to charge her for it.…

It's entitled for others to believe they have any say in what happens with the work of others. The world without these protections would be worse off by far. What I gather from what you are saying is that if I write a song, or a book, anyone else should be able to take what I've done and make their own money off it. By that logic, a publisher wouldn't need to compensate writers. Record executives wouldn't need to com…

Copyright is literally the granting of monopolies. That's the whole point of it.

Copyright benefits huge corporations way more than "the little guy." The biggest holders of copyrights and patents are huge corporations, many of which are often bought explicitly for the purpose of warding off competition from new upstarts.

These huge companies (e.g. Disney) also use their massive war chests to lobby the government into extending copyright terms. What used to just be 14 years of a limited monopoly has now been extended to hundreds of years. They're quite literally capturing and monopolizing the value.

When you look at what the average person does, generally speaking, it has little to do with patents and copyrights. The massive amount of creation and creativity we've seen online, with people riffing on art, music, video, code, etc., has largely involved infringing on copyrights held by the rich and powerful, and hoping to god we don't get sued.

Meaning:

(1) Copyright is in no way necessary for encouraging creativity, which was its original mandate. The evidence is in, and people create and innovate a ton without needing to have some sort of monopoly on everything they do.

(2) Far from protecting the little guy from the big guy, copyright has done the exact opposite, given the big guys huge legal recourse to sue little guys into oblivion, block innovation, block competition, and profit forever.

"The means of production" is an antiquated idea. Look at the reality on the ground. Producing and distributing has never been easier, never been more available to the masses, never been more popular. Big companies do not have a monopoly on the means. This whole copyright nonsense is an idea from the days when the printing press was a new invention, and the average person couldn't print. That's no longer true today.

Also, just from a theory perspective, we never made it so that you can copyright and patent recipes, no matter how creative they are. And yet, mom and pop restaurants have always flourished. Copyrights aren't enforced heavily in the software industry. In fact, just the opposite: we have open source. And yet, individual developers can thrive. This idea that without copyright, big companies are just going to steal everything from the little guy and the little guy will have no chance is just not true. The places where you see that happening the most are the places that have the strongest copyright protections, e.g. the music industry, the publishing industry, etc.

Re: The Public Should Own Half of the Big A.I. Companies

#237
post #39

I strongly dislike the belief that people should be compensated when others find ingenious ways to profit off of publicly-available data. We live in a world where "creating value" (doing things that others find helpful) and "capturing value" (getting those people to pay you money) are two different things. If I give my mom a hug, I'm creating value, but that's not necessarily something I'm going to charge her for it.…

But isn't that exactly what's going on here? An ai-company has created value by developing these models, and the public should capture that value via the instrument of government.

That's called taxes, and I'm all for it.

Re: The Public Should Own Half of the Big A.I. Companies

#240

Hackers should think of slavery reparations when they think of Sanders' proposal. Not as an equivalent, but as a more credible and similarly untenable idea. Sanders' being to take from those who produce to give to those who likely had almost no hand in the production, and with certainly no attempt to discern what contribution that may have been.

The Alaskan sovereign wealth fund is a much better metaphor.

I see the comparison--like AI companies are mining value out of public corpora, somewhat like how an oil or mining company extracts resources from the earth. An important difference being that when minerals are extracted they are removed from common use, unlike when a model is trained, which does not subtract from the commons (at least not directly, or substantially?)
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