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Why Japanese companies do so many different things

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Re: Why Japanese companies do so many different things

#231

Post by chongli »

jdw64 wrote: post #223
dfabulich wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What article were you reading? This article isn't idealizing Japanese companies, and specifically discusses the drawbacks of the Japanese approach, including zombie companies. The article's thesis statement isn't "the Japanese approach is better," but that business practices like these bundle together, that they're very difficult to change, and that each bundle has different advantages and disadvantages. Ironically,…

I did read it, but my impression remains the same. While the article does contain critiques of the Japanese system, as an East Asian, I feel it completely misses the actual underlying dynamics. I know the author isn't trying to paint Japan as a utopia. The reason I call it 'romanticized' is because the author claims Japan's success in precision parts is driven by 'horizontal' and 'collaborative' practices. That just…

ruthless squeezing of subcontractors

Walmart and Amazon ruthlessly squeeze their suppliers. They achieve low prices on some things and try to corner the market on others (and then raise prices). What I don't see them achieving (to the contrary, I see them failing spectacularly at) is the quality control that some Japanese companies excel at.

So there has to be something more to it than that.

Re: Why Japanese companies do so many different things

#232

Post by esseph »

tredre3 wrote: post #188
mrkstu wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate China? I don’t see that. There are plenty of factual reports about the CCP that are pretty damning, but the people/culture/place is generally perceived postively other than being a competitor…

> I don’t see that. You seem to be an American so I'm very confused. You'd have to be willingfully blind at this point to not see the anti-chinese propaganda that has been going on in America for (at least) the past decade.

Decade? At least as long as I've been alive and I'm very "mid-career".

Re: Why Japanese companies do so many different things

#233

Post by hammock »

jdw64 wrote: post #7

It’s always fascinating to see how Westerners idealize Japan on platforms like HN. It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? They’d probably find it strange and out of touch with reality. This essay on Japan's corporate diversification and physical tacit knowledge is an interesting read. However, as an East Asian, my assessment is tha…

It’s Stockholm syndrome. Japan really spanked the highly established U.S. auto and electronics industries in the 70s, and many people now look to kaizen, Kanban, etc as serious cope.

Re: Why Japanese companies do so many different things

#234

Post by jdw64 »

chongli wrote: post #231
jdw64 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did read it, but my impression remains the same. While the article does contain critiques of the Japanese system, as an East Asian, I feel it completely misses the actual underlying dynamics. I know the author isn't trying to paint Japan as a utopia. The reason I call it 'romanticized' is because the author claims Japan's success in precision parts is driven by 'horizontal' and 'collaborative' practices. That just…

ruthless squeezing of subcontractors Walmart and Amazon ruthlessly squeeze their suppliers. They achieve low prices on some things and try to corner the market on others (and then raise prices). What I don't see them achieving (to the contrary, I see them failing spectacularly at) is the quality control that some Japanese companies excel at. So there has to be something more to it than that.

When U.S. giants like Walmart or Amazon squeeze their suppliers, the natural consequence is cost-cutting and a drop in quality control. But for regional companies in Japan and Korea, regional mobility is incredibly difficult. In Japan, for instance, even politics is often "hereditary," and there is a strong overarching tendency for people and businesses to stay rooted in one specific region (while many do migrate to Tokyo, a vast number of people simply do not have that choice).

In the highly fluid U.S. corporate ecosystem, mobility is always an option. If a supplier loses a contract with Walmart, they can still pivot to another massive retailer, even if it's not quite as large.

Japan and Korea, however, have small landmasses, and the reputational risk is absolute. If a company's reputation is damaged by a single failure or a lost contract, their next job simply vanishes. Because of this existential threat, they fundamentally cannot compromise on quality. Imagine what happens to a small supplier in Japan if they are cut off by a mega-retailer like Aeon Mall. There is no backup giant waiting to take them. They are finished.

So, while geographical and structural differences dictate this extreme pursuit of quality, framing it as a "horizontal culture" is completely wrong. As an East Asian, I can confidently say that "horizontal culture" is the single most mismatched term you could possibly use to describe East Asia

Re: Why Japanese companies do so many different things

#235

Post by Squeeeez »

jodacola wrote: post #20
jdw64 wrote: post #7

It’s always fascinating to see how Westerners idealize Japan on platforms like HN. It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? They’d probably find it strange and out of touch with reality. This essay on Japan's corporate diversification and physical tacit knowledge is an interesting read. However, as an East Asian, my assessment is tha…

> It makes me wonder(i'm korean): how would a Westerner react if they saw me romanticizing the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain? They’d probably find it strange and out of touch with reality. Quite the opposite - for me, anyway. FWIW, as a Westerner, I find the Mondragon Corporation to be fascinating and something I've read a lot about because there's no way we've figured out the ideal sort of setup for a business (or…

There are aspects about cultures which can be fascinating, not (only) because they are foreign and new, but because dedicated and intelligent people have been improving them for generations, centuries even. I have a friend who is from Korea and who is a wood worker, and we have compared the different approaches to what, in the end, solves the same problems. Not everything can be incorporated into the other way of doing things, but I have found it eye-opening. My brain still tries to find ways, comparing, like a constant ping. Maybe one needs to dedicate 100% to the new way for a while to understand it fully before a genius brain would be able to find the spark how to meld both methods into a single improved Way of Doing Things (tm).

Re: Why Japanese companies do so many different things

#236

Post by PunchyHamster »

Weird thinking that not spinning out every single thing into separate company/selling it out just to make the investor sheet look nice is considered "strange"

Vertical integration is almost looked like a mistake in the western investor driven companies; and inventions are to be bought, not actually made, why risk research money into anything not deemed "core business" by the market ?

Re: Why Japanese companies do so many different things

#237

Post by nradov »

tredre3 wrote: post #188
mrkstu wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate China? I don’t see that. There are plenty of factual reports about the CCP that are pretty damning, but the people/culture/place is generally perceived postively other than being a competitor…

> I don’t see that. You seem to be an American so I'm very confused. You'd have to be willingfully blind at this point to not see the anti-chinese propaganda that has been going on in America for (at least) the past decade.

Is the propaganda false?

Re: Why Japanese companies do so many different things

#238

Post by AlotOfReading »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #83
AlotOfReading wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked for an American megacorp and the branch office of a Japanese company. The Japanese company felt a lot more humane on balance, though it doesn't express as well when I write it. The Japanese company had some rituals were a bit weird, but harmless/charmingly quaint like mandatory volunteer days, keeping a copy of the founder's precepts on my desk for executive walkthroughs. They also had some bad tendencies…

Let me summarise your post: Pro-corporation, anti-employee.

Not really sure how you got either of those, but you do you.

Re: Why Japanese companies do so many different things

#239

Post by jimbokun »

Shalomboy wrote: post #222
jimbokun wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Napoli doesn’t get any consideration?

I'm gonna be honest at tremendous personal expense: I just don't think Italy _gets_ pizza the way America does.

Napoli: simplest possible ingredients, locally grown, from that amazing volcanic soil, for dirt cheap prices. It’s all about the Marinara and the Margherita.

In America it’s generally lots of ingredients piled on, with prices spiraling out of control.

Anecdote: on a recent trip to Nee York City I was momentarily excited to read about a place making Napoli style pizzas. Then I saw a pie was close to $40. In Napoli that was about €6.

However, when I only had a few minutes before a show I dove into the closest pizza place and got a giant NYC style slice for a little over $5. It was the best meal I had during that trip.

So I think the moral of the story is that the best pizza is the one from the shop closest to you done in the style that city is known for. At least if you’re in NYC or Napoli.

Re: Why Japanese companies do so many different things

#240

Post by PunchyHamster »

jdw64 wrote: post #227
dfabulich wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What article were you reading? This article isn't idealizing Japanese companies, and specifically discusses the drawbacks of the Japanese approach, including zombie companies. The article's thesis statement isn't "the Japanese approach is better," but that business practices like these bundle together, that they're very difficult to change, and that each bundle has different advantages and disadvantages. Ironically,…

[flagged]

How does the "concentration" of gamedev jobs look like ? In US and I think in most of EU countries that have noticeable gamedev it is usually concentrated in very few cities, so changing job does not necessarily consist a move. But other industries similarly usually have a niche and sometimes whole towns that rose around it.

I think main difference is that there is very little tradition of company thinking they own something to the workers, and (I think) far more of companies just buying out their competition and then gutting any tradition and institutional knowledge within

> (Moving in Japan involves massive upfront rental fees like shikikin (deposit) and reikin (key money), making the physical act of relocating extremely prohibitive.)

I don't think that part is all that different? While we don't have "key money" it's still a big deal to take your life and move it somewhere else

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