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Waymo pauses Atlanta service as its robotaxis keep driving into floods

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Re: Waymo pauses Atlanta service as its robotaxis keep driving into floods

#231

Post by namibj »

ethbr1 wrote: post #224
Muromec wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as one could expect waymo to train on it, one could also expect a functioning city to not have flooded streets

That's like saying one could expect New Orleans not to flood during hurricanes. There are problems. There is money you can throw at those problems. And there are some problems that are rare & low impact enough that it's not worth throwing money at them. See also: keeping snowplows in Atlanta.

Yeah you can start by not building _more_ in the flood plain. And if you do, then don't build architecture that is incapable of just accepting the temporarily higher ground water. We know how to basement just make the basement high enough to tower over the flood. Oh, no cheap ground-level storefront windows? Welp, guess those have to be elevated above sufficiently voluminous drainage channels (the former streets).

Re: Waymo pauses Atlanta service as its robotaxis keep driving into floods

#232

Post by ryukoposting »

burnte wrote: post #175
grumbel wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a little worried that this is still a problem after 20 years. Don't they have simulators to test every weird and unexpected road condition offline? And flooded roads aren't exactly an unusual event to begin with.

In ATL this happens often enough that it's not a shock when it happens, we have lots of drainage problems here. I agree that I would have assumed Waymo had tested in events like this, but clearly not. So what I can say is running in ATL is a great test case for these events, and also the people who live here don't do a better job than Waymo did. There were dozens of people who ruined their cars yesterday trying to dr…

SV is the most cloistered place I've ever seen. I'm comfortable assuming that nobody in any position of power at Waymo ever thought to themselves "gee maybe the weather is different in this new city we're deploying to, perhaps we should test that"

Re: Waymo pauses Atlanta service as its robotaxis keep driving into floods

#233

Post by bluGill »

cheeze wrote: post #220
48terry wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A part of growing up is learning to put up with "good enough". "I feel content with good enough in this case." - quote from child whose body got folded in half by a Tesla Your growing up and adulthood sounds a lot like settling for mediocrity from those who push shit on us without asking if we ever wanted it. Floods aren't a special edge case, they happen all the time. The people making these are so stupid and blin…

... which is different from the child whose body got folded in half by someone looking at their phone? I think "good enough" ends up being okay. I _like_ driving. I would do manual mode often still just because I enjoy it. But I'd be completely fine with the option of autopilot in good conditions. Reality is that 99% of the time, my commute is boring and in good conditions. I don't need a self driving mode that can h…

I'm waiting for independent analysis of the data. According to those with access to data - but also with reason to lie with statistics - waymo is enough better overall than humans that I'm not comfortable with any human driving on any public road. If you like to drive then do it on a private track/course where your mistakes won't kill other people.

Of course the real data is hidden from me and nobody I trust to be independent has seen it and is talking.

Re: Waymo pauses Atlanta service as its robotaxis keep driving into floods

#234

Post by bluGill »

3498q2 wrote: post #218
RationPhantoms wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will posit something that guides my own thinking about this; robotaxis will never drink and drive. I'll take whatever flavor of mistake they conjure over that. I can deal with stupidity, I cannot (and don't want to) deal with malice.

Many people don't drink and drive either. You can drive defensively, choose your own route. Even on two lane roads: if an idiot overtakes into oncoming traffic there is usually just enough space for three vehicles next to each other. Can a Waymo move sharply to the right so there are two cars on each side with the overtaking idiot in the middle and all just fit on the road? I had to do that maneuver at least twice. C…

> Many people don't drink and drive either. You can drive defensively, choose your own route.

Few people drive defensively. I try to, but I'm human: I get distracted. I sometimes forget to follow the rules that I know well. I have no clue what new rules might have been added/changed since I took drivers ed years ago. Just like everybody else.

I can't do anybody about the guy who tailgated me today until there was just barely enough of a gap to get around and then he swerved over, but one mistake on his part... At least I was in a newish car which would protect me, if it wasn't supposed to rain today I'd have been on my bike in that area...

Re: Waymo pauses Atlanta service as its robotaxis keep driving into floods

#235

Post by bluGill »

ACCount37 wrote: post #134
RationPhantoms wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will posit something that guides my own thinking about this; robotaxis will never drink and drive. I'll take whatever flavor of mistake they conjure over that. I can deal with stupidity, I cannot (and don't want to) deal with malice.

"No DUI" is a big part of why even the current, flawed and markedly subhuman, self-driving cars casually beat human drivers on road safety. A self-driving car AI pays less attention than a human driver at his best. It isn't as aware as a human driver at his best. It doesn't have the spatial reasoning, the intuitive understanding of physics and road dynamics that matches that of a human driver at his best. Human drive…

> "No DUI" is a big part of why even the current, flawed and markedly subhuman, self-driving cars casually beat human drivers on road safety.

Citation needed. I have never seen independent analysis of the data. You might be right - I've even suggested similar before. However you might be wrong.

Re: Waymo pauses Atlanta service as its robotaxis keep driving into floods

#236

Post by MagicMoonlight »

bluGill wrote: post #228
themafia wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your premise is "robotaxis are so much better than human drivers" then this is almost a disaster. This is only the 10th city they've deployed to, all in the south, and nowhere there's significantly inclement weather. It does not bode well for their expansion plans.

Human drivers are very very bad. Being better than humans is a low bar with plenty of room to be bad as well.

No they aren’t. Billions drive around every day with minimal collisions. Far more people get raped than hit by cars.

Re: Waymo pauses Atlanta service as its robotaxis keep driving into floods

#238

Post by ethbr1 »

namibj wrote: post #231
ethbr1 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying one could expect New Orleans not to flood during hurricanes. There are problems. There is money you can throw at those problems. And there are some problems that are rare & low impact enough that it's not worth throwing money at them. See also: keeping snowplows in Atlanta.

Yeah you can start by not building _more_ in the flood plain. And if you do, then don't build architecture that is incapable of just accepting the temporarily higher ground water. We know how to basement just make the basement high enough to tower over the flood. Oh, no cheap ground-level storefront windows? Welp, guess those have to be elevated above sufficiently voluminous drainage channels (the former streets).

Or in Florida's case, mandate hurricane ties on timber homes so they can't lift off their slabs.

One of the things that annoys me most about non-engineering mindsets is not looking at problems from a multivariate optimization perspective.

There are problems, and then there are always more variables to be balanced to optimally solve them than people expect.

The critical additional ones, more often than not: time and money.

Re: Waymo pauses Atlanta service as its robotaxis keep driving into floods

#239

Post by burnte »

Muromec wrote: post #215
burnte wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In ATL this happens often enough that it's not a shock when it happens, we have lots of drainage problems here. I agree that I would have assumed Waymo had tested in events like this, but clearly not. So what I can say is running in ATL is a great test case for these events, and also the people who live here don't do a better job than Waymo did. There were dozens of people who ruined their cars yesterday trying to dr…

As much as one could expect waymo to train on it, one could also expect a functioning city to not have flooded streets

On one hand, sure, but on the other, Earth doesn't care what we expect. And humans don't build rationally most of the time. Most cities are hundreds or thousands of years old.

Re: Waymo pauses Atlanta service as its robotaxis keep driving into floods

#240

Post by burnte »

QuercusMax wrote: post #192
burnte wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In ATL this happens often enough that it's not a shock when it happens, we have lots of drainage problems here. I agree that I would have assumed Waymo had tested in events like this, but clearly not. So what I can say is running in ATL is a great test case for these events, and also the people who live here don't do a better job than Waymo did. There were dozens of people who ruined their cars yesterday trying to dr…

We had a story in the news this week about a Cybertruck driver who thought his Elonmobile was a boat because it has "wade mode" and deliberately drove into a lake! Humans are very stupid when it comes to driving through standing water!

I saw that just a day or two before wednesday! Hilarious timing.
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