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Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

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Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the permit is to discharge into a ditch. And that is also the ditch that they are discharging into.

“A ditch” and “this ditch specifically” are two entirely separate concepts.

Yeah. And we are dealing with the latter.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#232
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My experience comes from driving and working on a 1988 GMC 6000 truck with an anemic 350 small block with a Muncie SM465 behind it. There was no catalytic converter, Catalytic converters were required on most vehicles starting in 1975 in the US and the requirement was expanded to cover all vehicles in the early 80s. Your truck was modified by someone.

I don't think that's right. I believe this is the relevant EPA regulation: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2004-title40-vol17/p... . This mentions emission limits but does not require a catalytic converter for medium duty (14,000lb-26,000lb GVWR) trucks like the GMC 6000.

> This mentions emission limits but does not require a catalytic converter

IIRC, technically if the vehicle meets emissions limits without a catalytic converter then it doesn't need one.

The emission limits are set such that a catalytic converter is required to meet them. They don't have to say "catalytic converter required" but the targets are chosen so that a catalytic converter can reasonably achieve them.

If the laws simply said "catalytic converter required" then manufacturers could put a tiny little square of catalyst in the exhaust and call it a day. Formula 1 isn't the only place where rules have to be written explicitly to avoid clever workarounds.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#233
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's right. I believe this is the relevant EPA regulation: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2004-title40-vol17/p... . This mentions emission limits but does not require a catalytic converter for medium duty (14,000lb-26,000lb GVWR) trucks like the GMC 6000.

> This mentions emission limits but does not require a catalytic converter IIRC, technically if the vehicle meets emissions limits without a catalytic converter then it doesn't need one. The emission limits are set such that a catalytic converter is required to meet them. They don't have to say "catalytic converter required" but the targets are chosen so that a catalytic converter can reasonably achieve them. If the…

> Catalytic converters were required

You claimed they were required by law, but they weren’t. Now you claim they had them anyway, but I can find no evidence of that either. Do you have some evidence that 1988 GMC 6000 trucks had a catalytic converter from the factory? I can find nothing online to support that claim.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#234
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lithium and vanadium at concentrations Lazarte’s letter described as abnormally high relative to rainwater or normal groundwater. > Hexavalent chromium at 0.0104 milligrams per liter, just above the lab’s reporting limit of 0.01 mg/L. Hexavalent chromium is classified as a known human carcinogen by the US National Toxicology Program. It is the substance the Erin Brockovich case was built around. > Strontium at 1.17…

A counterpoint is this The lab tested for chromium in two ways: one test (ICP) measures all chromium of any kind, and the other measures hexavalent chromium specifically. The ICP test returned a concentration that was an order of magnitude smaller than the hexavalent test. That is to say, the tests contradict each other (because the whole is smaller than the part), and are both at the bottom of range for the tests pe…

If an ICP assay says the total chromium is an order of magnitude less then we can safely ignore the specific hexavalent test, which is a more difficult and less precise measure. I didn’t even look at that.

Everything about this says bad science and motivated reasoning intended to fool people unsophisticated about this type of thing.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Air pumps were for catalyst efficiency. The old ones needed extra oxygen molecules floating around for the big stuff (hydrocarbons) to oxidize with until the catalyst was up to operating temp and working at peak-ish efficiency. My experience comes from driving and working on a 1988 GMC 6000 truck with an anemic 350 small block with a Muncie SM465 behind it. There was no catalytic converter, only a muffler. It featu…

350ish (or less) + 4spd trucks kinda fell out of favor over the course of the 70s for bigger engines and 5spds (usually with a 2spd rear end but I digress). I'm sure you could still get one, but who would when you could get something better on the lot for the same money. Sounds like someone swapped a 70s-80s engine from a lighter application in. I don't think that truck would've had manual choke from the factory. Lot…

> I'm sure you could still get one, but who would when you could get something better on the lot for the same money.

It was almost certainly cheaper to get the small block and if that's all you need why spend more to burn more gas? The 1988 GM Medium Duty Truck brochure lists the 5.7L (350CID) V8 and SM-465 as standard equipment. I have no idea what the sales numbers were but it's not far fetched for a 1988 truck to have been configured with a small block and a 4 speed from the factory.

https://xr793.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/1988-GMC-Medium...

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#236
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno, maybe strive to release no pollutants at all? Then we wouldn't need all the pesky big government overreach.

Um, I'm pretty sure we can all get behind corps striving for the ideal. Fines align incentives. Are you actually suggesting that we rely on the good will of a for profit corp? When has that ever worked?

GP suggests that it's fine if it's not forbidden yet. My (sarcastic) suggestion is that it is not, because corporations never act in good faith.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#237
post #4

Obviously, discharging "dark and murky" polluted water is bad. But some of the figures from the lab report don't seem that terrible: * Hexavalent chromium at 0.0104 milligrams per liter, just above the lab’s reporting limit of 0.01 mg/L. Hexavalent chromium is classified as a known human carcinogen by the US National Toxicology Program. It is the substance the Erin Brockovich case was built around. * Arsenic at 0.002…

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Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#238
A broader issue is that I understand processing of ores of lithium and rare earth minerals is generating a lot of toxic waste, and that's one of the principal reasons it is not done in the rich Western countries. China doesn't seem to mind as much. There are minable ores in the West also, but not exploited for this reason, among others.

It's quite the conundrum. What do you do? Is the energy independence worth the pollution? And is the pollution OK if it affects someone poor far away.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#239
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give us some specific citations for evidence of biological necessity for arsenic and lead? I searched on PubMed but couldn't find anything.

It is damn near impossible to search on Google for this literature today. Fortunately, some of the links have been posted to this site before, which is searchable. :) Here is the first good reference I could find, which surveys some of the other literature. It mentions lead in rat models. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2246629/

Since maybe half a year ago, the best way to search stuff like that, by a huge margin, are frontier models like ChatGPT or Gemini. Here's what they found, the TLDR is that lead is much less likely to be essential (in extremely minute amounts) than arsenic, which has been proven to be beneficial in trace amounts for a bunch of mammals. Since those experiments cannot be done on humans, we don't know if it is the same situation in our case, but the null hypothesis at this point is that it is.

https://chatgpt.com/share/6a0d522f-5688-83eb-b80c-0f7b157fae... https://gemini.google.com/share/e2e52489a41e

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#240
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not hard to figure this stuff out yourself.

It is hard. I did some searches before commenting and couldn't find anything about arsenic deficiency. I don't know much about arsenic biochemistry so could you kindly point us to a good source?

It's super easy with ChatGPT, for example. See my other reply in this thread, I've included the responses there.
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