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Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

nytimes.com

231–240 of 259 posts

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#231
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The buyer in a grocery store can't negotiate; the store just sets the price and the buyer's only choice is to take it or leave it. Under the conditions described, the product is still worth it to the buyer who the store is charging the higher price (the one the store knows has more income and so can afford to pay more), at the higher price--there's just less consumer surplus. So the buyer still buys the product. But…

The store manager has a lot of flexibility, and some of the staff are also empowered to take care of things. If you feel you are being overcharged, see the manager. If you're nice to them, you can negotiate. Remind him how many years you've been a loyal customer. Being polite and friendly works, being a jerk does not. The ultimate negotiating tactic is to explain your position politely to the store manager, and walk…

All of this is very nice--and irrelevant to the point under discussion.

Under the scenario that the Maryland law is outlawing, the richer customer who is being charged the higher price by the grocery store still finds the product to be worth it to them at the higher price. And since their time has value, and they're just grocery shopping, and they're rich and not trying to pinch pennies, they'll just buy the thing at the price the store is asking. There will be less consumer surplus for them, as I said, than there would be if the store were charging them the same price as the average middle class person--but it's highly doubtful that it will be worth their time to try to extract that extra consumer surplus from the store. That's why stores want to price discriminate in the first place--because they know the richer customers won't bother trying to haggle over price.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#232
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it adjusted the prices as someone approaches, I suspect customers would soon notice it. I'm not going to order food at a restaurant if the menu has no prices on it, even if I'm a zillionaire.

Actually, restaurants that cater to the very rich often don't have any prices on the menu, on the theory that if you have to ask what it costs, you can't afford it.

I've been to the most expensive restaurant in Seattle, and there were prices on the menu. (It was for a special date, and worth every penny.)

I'm sure there are some, though, but I disagree with your theory. My theory is the patrons do it to show off their wealth by disregarding the prices.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#233
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the government is regulating prices The government is regulating one particular thing that many sellers try to do (price discrimination). But it is not preventing sellers from adjusting their prices based on supply and demand. The seller can still set price equal to marginal cost--i.e., where the supply and demand curves cross--to maximize profit. They just can't extract further profit by charging richer customers…

As you can negotiate prices at an appliance dealership, obviously people pay different prices for the same thing. The prices at the grocery store change daily, obviously people are paying different prices for the same thing. The guy you sit next to on an airplane paid a different price than you did. The pump price at the gas station can change hourly. > They just can't extract further profit by charging richer custom…

> The demand curve is different for every customer.

No, the price the customer is willing to pay for a given product is different for every customer. But the demand curve is just the aggregate of all that--how many customers are willing to pay a given price for the product, as a function of the price. There are different demand curves for different products, but the notion that there is a different demand curve for every customer for a single product makes no sense.

> BTW, do you also feel it is unfair if a store charges a person less if the store realizes the person is a bit needy?

I've said nothing whatever about whether or not I agree with the Maryland law under discussion here. I'm just trying to be clear about what the law does and doesn't do.

> I could not just raise prices and "extract" more profit

You can't raise prices for all customers and expect more profit, of course.

But if you can raise prices only for those customers who are willing to pay higher prices, i.e., if you can price discriminate, then yes, you can extract more profit by doing that--as I've said multiple times now, you're transferring what would otherwise be consumer surplus to yourself. And if the cost to you of getting the extra information you need to price discriminate is less than the consumer surplus you're able to extract by doing so, then it's profitable for you to do it if you can.

Doing what I've just described is what the law under discussion here outlaws.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#234
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The store manager has a lot of flexibility, and some of the staff are also empowered to take care of things. If you feel you are being overcharged, see the manager. If you're nice to them, you can negotiate. Remind him how many years you've been a loyal customer. Being polite and friendly works, being a jerk does not. The ultimate negotiating tactic is to explain your position politely to the store manager, and walk…

All of this is very nice--and irrelevant to the point under discussion. Under the scenario that the Maryland law is outlawing, the richer customer who is being charged the higher price by the grocery store still finds the product to be worth it to them at the higher price . And since their time has value, and they're just grocery shopping, and they're rich and not trying to pinch pennies, they'll just buy the thing a…

So if the rich people don't want to bother haggling, why does the government feel there is a need for this law?

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, are American just inherently less disciplined that Europeans? Is that the issue with healthcare in America? I find this explanation very unsatisfying. You have to look at systems to understand what is actually happening.

>So, are American just inherently less disciplined that Europeans? I never said anything like that but you could be right on that. A lot of those lifestyle issues are creeping in other highly urbanized rich western countries. Especially mental illnesses due to loneliness, lack of family unit, poor economic outlook, etc >I find this explanation very unsatisfying. Then come up with a better one and share it. If you wan…

Here goes:

Healthcare is an inelastic market, people are willing to pay anything to get it. Private insurance companies have grown into a kind of cartel and are able to jack up prices at will, going as high as customers are able to pay. They are disincentivized to pay for expensive treatments, to increase their margins. These companies are so powerful, and officials are so easily corrupted, that they are able to get their way with legislation every time.

All of this combines into a huge vicious cycle that is able to extract more and more wealth for worse and worse results.

Americans used to live longer than Europeans, you know? Now it's the opposite. Certainly, food in America is worse and people drive more instead of walking. But then again, the State isn't incentivized to keep its citizenry healthy, since it doesn't pay for healthcare. To me, this is part of a package deal, there's no sense in trying to decorrelate public health from healthcare systems.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my country prices are often wrong because supermarkets are run by a small team of literal teenagers (one of the downsides of having decent minimum wages is that nobody wants to hire anyone if they somehow can avoid it).

The true minimum wage is zero.

It's definitely possible for a job to have negative expected value for the employee, even if looking only at cash flow. MLMs are the most obvious way, but e.g. hairdressers often need to rent their station in the store -- while this can be a reasonable deal, it can also run negative.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the US has a bigger public healthcare system than, afaik, every European country In which metric(s)? Afaik, life expectancy is lower in the US than in most of western Europe. And Americans are known to pay much more than Europeans on healthcare, on average.

Life expectancy for a country of 300m compared with a subsection of Europe that is most wealthy...seems like a fairly disingenuous comparison. Are you one of those people that believes most American schools are shooting ranges too? All of the problems in the US are concentrated in subsections of the population (just as in Europe). America is a wealthy country that has a mix of south American and African problems atta…

"The US already has a public healthcare system, it doesn't work well "

Medicare works pretty well and the VA works pretty well despite all the negative propaganda. Both are different systems but both have government regulations on pricing.

People are pretending that in the private US health care system everybody gets stellar treatment without waiting times. That is simply not true. When I compare the waiting times my family in Germany has vs how much friends in the US are waiting, I don't see much difference. US quality doesn't seem better either. The main difference seems to be that in the US people are constantly strategizing whether they want to risk paying a month's salary for taking an ambulance or going bankrupt when they have a serious illness. Whereas in Germany they go to the doctor when they need to.

Yes, you can have super shiny new treatments in the US if you can pay but I prefer a system that first covers the most common problems in an affordable way.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#238
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this is very nice--and irrelevant to the point under discussion. Under the scenario that the Maryland law is outlawing, the richer customer who is being charged the higher price by the grocery store still finds the product to be worth it to them at the higher price . And since their time has value, and they're just grocery shopping, and they're rich and not trying to pinch pennies, they'll just buy the thing a…

So if the rich people don't want to bother haggling, why does the government feel there is a need for this law?

From what the article says, it looks to be political pressure about protecting privacy and "consumer rights". Whether the law actually does what the politicians say it's for, is a different question.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So, are American just inherently less disciplined that Europeans? I never said anything like that but you could be right on that. A lot of those lifestyle issues are creeping in other highly urbanized rich western countries. Especially mental illnesses due to loneliness, lack of family unit, poor economic outlook, etc >I find this explanation very unsatisfying. Then come up with a better one and share it. If you wan…

Here goes: Healthcare is an inelastic market, people are willing to pay anything to get it. Private insurance companies have grown into a kind of cartel and are able to jack up prices at will, going as high as customers are able to pay. They are disincentivized to pay for expensive treatments, to increase their margins. These companies are so powerful, and officials are so easily corrupted, that they are able to get…

>Americans used to live longer than Europeans, you know?

When, in WW2?

>They are disincentivized to pay for expensive treatments, to increase their margins.

I've experience both systems. It's worse (for me) with European state-run healthcare I am right now, where they are even more disincentivized to pay for expensive treatments, except not to increase margins but because the system is constantly broke, so the treatments are always long-wait and last-gen compared to the cutting edge fast-track you get in the US, if you're insured, or you pay through the nose for it, or your insurance does if you work for a decent company.

So that doesn't explain why Americans live less despite being able to get cutting edge care faster. You know, maybe a diet of processed food and sedentary lifestyle can't be undone by a faster MRI/surgery appointment with cutting edge equipment.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Price controls will screw over the most vulnerable consumers. Small businesses will offer lower prices to price sensitive or low-income consumers or repeat customers. Because despite what you will read about on Reddit, the owners are not cartoon characters, live in the community and care about their neighbors.

> Because despite what you will read about on Reddit, the owners are not cartoon characters, live in the community and care about their neighbors. What? To the best of my knowledge, not a single grocery store chain in my area is owned by someone local to the community. The two biggest chains (that aren't Walmart) are owned by Kroger and by an international retail conglomerate. Both are publicly traded, so there's no…

Kroger and the others operate razor thin margins. They offer programs for low income consumers, support local and national charities, do second chance hiring and specifically create unique roles for people with disabilities. They aren’t required to do ANY of those things in most places that they operate.
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