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DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

simonwillison.net

231–240 of 420 posts

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#231
post #113

The biggest differentiator for me: DeepSeek just does what I ask. I've tried using both GPT and Claude for reverse engineering recently, both refused. I even got a warning on my OpenAI account.

Obscene levels of hallucinations, the worst of LLMs, unfortunately.

Deepseek v4 pro 94%

Deepseek v4 flash - 96%

https://artificialanalysis.ai/evaluations/omniscience?models...

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#232
post #113

The biggest differentiator for me: DeepSeek just does what I ask. I've tried using both GPT and Claude for reverse engineering recently, both refused. I even got a warning on my OpenAI account.

To be fair, anthropic has a procedure which lets them vet you as a security researcher so you can use claude as a pentester.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#233
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're probably worried about liability. Let's say that Oracle finds out you reverse engineered their DB using Gemini. You can be sure they will sue Google. Not just for providing the tools, but you could make the argument that it's actually Gemini doing the reverse engineering, and on Google's hardware no less.

We need that lawsuit to happen already so we can establish precedent. The person in the driver's seat of the Tesla should be at fault. The engineer using the llm should be at fault. The person behind the gun not the manufacturer should be at fault.

In the America, whoever has the most money is liable. It's not worth it for the legal industry otherwise. The lawyer earns his pay by convincing the court that whatever established precedent doesn't apply to his case.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#234
post #113

The biggest differentiator for me: DeepSeek just does what I ask. I've tried using both GPT and Claude for reverse engineering recently, both refused. I even got a warning on my OpenAI account.

> I even got a warning on my OpenAI account. This is kind of terrifying to me, regularly. No real manner of recourse to normal people without a following, potential exclusion from real fundamental tooling. Imagine OpenAI goes on to buy 20 companies and now you cant use Figma, Next, whatever just because you once tripped some very foggy line somehow. Not just OpenAI but the entire ecosystem is so... hard to read. I wa…

Yep, and with ID verification, it's not like you can just make another account either. At least, I'm guessing if they don't already, they'll soon be blacklisting individuals, not accounts.

Imagine your livelihood depending on access to LLMs and then OpenAI ban you with no recourse. This is where AI legislation should be focusing right now IMO. We can ensure a level of fairness for everyone without putting the brakes on.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#235
post #113

The biggest differentiator for me: DeepSeek just does what I ask. I've tried using both GPT and Claude for reverse engineering recently, both refused. I even got a warning on my OpenAI account.

> even got a warning on my OpenAI account Edit: https://chatgpt.com/cyber

I don't want to verify my ID. OpenAI uses Persona which recently was found to be doing very dodgy stuff.

https://www.therage.co/persona-age-verification/

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#236
post #113

The biggest differentiator for me: DeepSeek just does what I ask. I've tried using both GPT and Claude for reverse engineering recently, both refused. I even got a warning on my OpenAI account.

> I even got a warning on my OpenAI account. This idea of software threatening the user with consequences is totally wild and dystopian. Fellow developers, what kind of world have be built? This is insanity. Imagine if my hammer told me, "Hey, you shouldn't use me on screws--only nails. Do it again and I'll self-destruct!" WTF people, stop making this kind of software!

All sorts of tools try to prevent dangerous/destructive uses

In fact probably every single piece of commercial software you use had you sign a contract saying you wouldn’t do it

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#237
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have an enterprise cursor account so I can try all the mainstream models. Using composer 2 on our own code which I obviously have the source code for I couldn't get it to turn on a debug flag to bypass license checks while I was troubleshooting something. Infuriating. It was like that old Patrick from SpongeBob meme. I don't understand why we would turn the models into law enforcement officers. Things that are ill…

They're probably worried about liability. Let's say that Oracle finds out you reverse engineered their DB using Gemini. You can be sure they will sue Google. Not just for providing the tools, but you could make the argument that it's actually Gemini doing the reverse engineering, and on Google's hardware no less.

Also because Google is the one with a lot more money than whoever was using Gemini.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#239

While the cost are lower than frontier models there are two factors that make DS4 Pro and K2.6 not as cheap as they might look. For DS4 Pro there's a discount going on for the official API, which sometimes gets overlooked and mixed up in discussions. Simon uses the full price in the comparison, so that's not an issue here. The other issue is that DS4 Pro and K2.6 often use way more reasoning tokens than the frontier…

According to Artificial Analysis, Grok 4.3[1] is faster, smarter, cheaper, and uses fewer tokens than DS4. So why aren't we talking about Grok?

1. https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/grok-4-3

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#240
post #85

I tried deepseek v4 through open code at the weekend. I'm a daily Claude/Claude code user. I tried to build something simple and while it got the job done the thinking displayed did not fill me with confidence. It was pages and pages of "actually no", "hang on", "wait that makes no sense". It was like the model was having a breakdown. Bear in mind open code was also new to me so I could be just seeing thinking where…

You can just use it through Claude Code, so you get to keep the system prompt and tooling you are used to. 3rd party models are a drop-in replacement with `ANTHROPIC_BASE_URL` in Claude Code, something people seem to miss right now. And contrary to what Anthropic might like to have you think, you don't need Opus 4.7 to run the harness to get similar performance. https://api-docs.deepseek.com/quick_start/agent_integra…

Is there an easier way to manage multiple models?
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