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ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

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Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#231

Post by oasisaimlessly »

robocat wrote: post #217
fuzzfactor wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent article, Mr. Hacker :) >ASML started off life within Philips, the Dutch consumer electronics giant. Who started with light bulbs which were using the electrons for direct visual and UI/UX purposes. Some of the most simple electronic components, but quite a bit like appliances themselves. No surprise a lamp in English means either a bulb, an appliance, or both. Vacuum tubes were the next step up in complexit…

Many modern electronics still contain a vacuum because MEMS gyroscopes use a high vacuum. The search response also said MEMS oscillators (modern performance replacements for quartz crystals) use a high vacuum but given the iPhone 8 was famously "bricked" by Helium affecting a MEMS oscillator - I'm unsure about that! https://www.vice.com/en/article/why-a-helium-leak-disabled-e... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microele…

MEMS oscillators do use a vacuum, and that's why they're susceptible to helium. A helium atom is tiny compared to an oxygen or nitrogen atom, and can leak through many otherwise-perfect seals.

So, a (badly-designed) MEMS oscillator is basically a region of vacuum enclosed by a membrane that only helium can permeate. Of course exposing it to helium is going to permanently change its behavior! Once the helium gets in, there's no reason for it to leave, due to the vastly higher atmospheric pressure outside.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#232

Post by nightshift1 »

Liftyee wrote: post #120
dzonga wrote: post #63

one thing not mentioned is how China is using the older tech DUV's to print advanced chips since replicating EUVs is close to impossible.

If ASML could do it, China will also do it. It's just a matter of development time and resources, both of which are plentiful in China.

They did. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/business/2025/12/18/tech/china-...

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#233

Post by 12_throw_away »

i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #94
rigonkulous wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a thing in writing where you can make bold claims in order to give the reader an idea about what the rest of the article is going to be about - that's whats happening here, a bit of editorializing .. but do you know of a more complex machine than the ASML/TSMC production line, in terms of inputs/outputs? I think, if one were used to calculating cyclomatic complexity, such a headline is not only amusing, but a…

so it had an unusual amount of inputs and outputs? that's the measure?

> that's the measure?

As the the comment you're replying to just said, A) it's qualitative and B) it's perfectly fine to glaze the subject a bit in journalistic writing. It gives the article a quick hook to get readers interested, and if you actually read the article it becomes the least interesting thing about it.

And now that I've said that: I'd argue that if you consider the full "embodied complexity" of this machine's product lifecycle, it's hard to think of much else that compares to it. E.g., consider not just the machine itself, but also all of the R&D needed to get it to this point, and the amount of field experience necessary to make maintainable and reliable, and the engineering and supply-chain work necessary so that you can reliably ship them to customers around the world? While still being far, far ahead of all your competitors?

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#234

Post by scotty79 »

IAmBroom wrote: post #125
scotty79 wrote: post #30

I'm pretty sure that's the most bizarre light source on the planet: https://youtu.be/B2482h_TNwg?t=929

(The video describes the actual lithographic laser.) And it's a source of serious hazardous waste products. It's a tin-ion laser, operating in an ultra-pure vacuum, on an unbelievably high-energy band (even laser "lines" have definable bandwidths). There's really not a lot of wiggle room in materials selection for the laser.

I wouldn't call it a laser. Lasers are just a forming and heating mechanism. The actual light source is tin plasma.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#235

Post by Dylan16807 »

rigonkulous wrote: post #79
wahern wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article might disagree. See the subsection, "The importance of tacit knowledge". OTOH, if that tacit knowledge is indeed so critical then there's less risk (e.g. regarding future investment incentives) to narrowing patent protections. OTOOH, ASML's supply chain is deep and complex, and the patent portfolio is presumably similarly diffuse, which makes it difficult to analyze or even, short of a complete patent reg…

ASML's supply chain is deep and complex - and secret . But if it were F/OSS (just imagine it) from sand to chip, that complexity would have a wider scope of human attention applied to it. What is happening with ASML now, once happened with the wheel. Think about that .

A wider scope of attention yes. I'm not convinced there would be nearly as many multi-billion dollar research projects.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#236

Post by fuzzfactor »

oasisaimlessly wrote: post #231
robocat wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many modern electronics still contain a vacuum because MEMS gyroscopes use a high vacuum. The search response also said MEMS oscillators (modern performance replacements for quartz crystals) use a high vacuum but given the iPhone 8 was famously "bricked" by Helium affecting a MEMS oscillator - I'm unsure about that! https://www.vice.com/en/article/why-a-helium-leak-disabled-e... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microele…

MEMS oscillators do use a vacuum, and that's why they're susceptible to helium. A helium atom is tiny compared to an oxygen or nitrogen atom, and can leak through many otherwise-perfect seals. So, a (badly-designed) MEMS oscillator is basically a region of vacuum enclosed by a membrane that only helium can permeate. Of course exposing it to helium is going to permanently change its behavior! Once the helium gets in,…

Very interesting. Good info about both the gyroscopes and oscillators. I didn't know that much progress had been made.

I remember when MEMS started getting capable of micro fluid handling, but wasn't aware of what they were doing with "lack of fluid" :)

Really bringing the little vacuum chambers out of the big vacuum chamber and onto the street.

Over the decades I have often thought about doing something like that, but not really micro.

Now I'm suspicious about something I hadn't considered before at a previous employer's chem lab. Last month when they called me back in, there was inconsistent oscillation being applied (sometimes not) to a key analog sensor on one instrument which is about the same vintage as the iPhone 6 where the problem showed up from the early MEMS oscillators. These instruments have been there for over a decade and it may be some other electronic problem, but this does coincide with a couple additional gas analyzers they brought in a few months ago which are now wasting about 5x more helium than I was using when I was controlling it. Exhausting into one lab, but not having a completely isolated ventilation system.

Now I know something to try next time and that's not even why they called me in this time.

This could actually be one of those problems that shows up intermittently depending on which way the "wind" blows ;)

Sometimes the best way to fix things is to wait until you're smarter :0

Thanks to all for very valuable info and links.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#237

Post by anarticle »

maxalbarello wrote: post #21
mytailorisrich wrote: post #11

It is unavoidable that, at some point, China will have its own matching or better machine because they obviously how incredibly strategically important it is.

i find it hard to believe that there is no equivalent anywhere else in the world. there is so much talent out there and the stakes are so high that it seems like an inevitability. whatever many secrets are involved, information wants to be free and it's hard to believe that others won't figure it out. by the time they do catch up we better be steps ahead. what's after EUV?

That's the edge of what's possible, it's quite common even for researchers to have problems replicating results at the edge.

There's sometime implicit knowledge in a technique that either doesn't get written down, or someone is so good at something you don't think certain details will matter.

In my old lab (biochemistry) some people just have good hands and are really good at making something repeatable, others not so much.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#239

Post by BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 »

Danox wrote: post #196
random3 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veritasium has a nice video about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiUHjLxm3V0 Obviously, there are a lot of reasons why. But it boils down to having the vision, the belief and the strength to follow through over many years. It's important to not confound vision with random Kool-Aid. Instead it's grounded in research. That research is itself grounded in a strong vision and belief — it got laughed by the entire phys…

Very true one thing you have to be impressed with is ASML willingness over time to iterate and iterate again nose to the grindstone. More companies could learn a lesson from that. There were several American companies that had it all in the last 60 years and squandered it. IBM, Xerox, Kodak, US Steel.

Xerox in my time there skewed compensation to the salespeople while turning a blind eye to the software developers who made the sale possible.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#240

Post by eggsome »

IAmBroom wrote: post #51
jstummbillig wrote: post #25

> By betting on extreme ultraviolet lithography long before it worked, ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips. Makes one wonder: Would we be much better off of worse off if we reshaped society to do more of things, where a new technology is unlikely to work but highly beneficial in the limits? Would we sooner have 10 additional ASMLs or waste a lot of resources?

Big gambles have big risks. It's the gambler's folly, after a big win (ASML's EUV) to say, gee, we should have bought more lottery tickets! Next time, it all goes on red! What is no longer mentioned is that ASML made another big gamble at the time they started on EUV. They decided to make an all-in-one chip making machine that took silicon and output chips (instead of matrices of chip circuits laid out on a wafer). O…

Do you have a link for the all-in-one project? I'd like to know more.
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