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Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

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Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#231

Post by datsci_est_2015 »

sleepybrett wrote: post #102
criddell wrote: post #11

Wars used to be paid for by raising taxes. Now we have no idea how much they cost. How many years in a row has the Pentagon failed it's audit? How many years (decades?) was the Iraq war funded through annual (unbudgeted) emergency measures? How many trillions in promised healthcare does America owe its veterans? If the President had to make the case that taking on Iran would cost each American around $1000 on top of…

> How many years in a row has the Pentagon failed it's audit? The pentagon has NEVER been successfully audited.

All caps “NEVER” made me double check how many audits they’ve failed, and it’s only been since 2018 that the first “audit” occurred.

Eisenhower warned of the industrial military complex in his farewell address in 1961, 57 years prior.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#232

Post by MengerSponge »

bragr wrote: post #149
MengerSponge wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For others' sake, I double-checked: 2.59 million served, of which 648,500 were draftees. Right at 25% Is there a study of soldiers who enlisted but only because their draft number was low? There were substantial benefits to enlisting, because you could choose your branch of service.

It would be more interesting to see those numbers broken down by frontline service. What percentage of the guys actually dying in the jungle were drafted?

17,725 draftees died, just over 30% of all American combat deaths in the war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_draft

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#233

Post by insane_dreamer »

_doctor_love wrote: post #195
insane_dreamer wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When's the last time Finland or Switzerland attacked or invaded another country? People are willing to engage in compulsory military service if they feel that it's truly meant to help the country defend itself from actual attack, not potentially being shipped off somewhere to serve some political or economic goal.

> When's the last time Finland or Switzerland attacked or invaded another country? Not recently to my knowledge, but Finland has extensive experience being invaded given they are neighbors with Russia (and Sweden in the past). When your next door neighbor keeps seeing your country as "their property," you need means to push them back.

Yes, that's my point. They have been invaded, and therefore needed to defend themselves; they have not been the aggressor.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#234

Post by ludicrousdispla »

_doctor_love wrote: post #20

Other countries have compulsory military service, for example Finland. Generally speaking I am a fan of the idea that everyone should be required to do some kind of community service for 2 years once they turn 18. Military service would just be one option, could be other kinds of civic engagement. This can really help people feel connected to their society and understand that there is something to show up for. BUT -…

Austria has this figured out...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivildienst_in_Austria

https://www.oesterreich.gv.at/en/themen/gesetze_und_recht/we...

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#235

Post by burnt-resistor »

JohnMakin wrote: post #106
russellbeattie wrote: post #47

To those HNers working at Palantir - and there's bound to be a few - what's your deal? You do realize what sort of company you work for, right? Is it cognitive dissonance or are you really a paranoid right winger that's fully on board with Palantir's efforts to enable authoritarian governments akin to 1984's Big Brother? I'm curious. Please feel free to explain how you go to work every day and do what you do. Fair wa…

Money can paper over a lot of moral dilemmas - everyone has a price, whether or not we're necessarily aware of it. I refuse to interview with any company in the "defense," space, but I'm sure if someone threw enough money at me I might entertain it. For true believers though, which I'm sure exist there, I do wonder much the same things.

> everyone has a price

False. People with integrity exist who have moral absolute boundaries.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#236

Post by pseudalopex »

plorkyeran wrote: post #200
JohnTHaller wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the many issues with this supposedly being for everyone is that rich folks like Donald Trump's dad will get a doctor to get them out of it. Rules for thee and not for me is basically their motto.

One of the benefits of it being some form of civil service and not specifically military service is that it eliminates large categories of medical exemptions from being relevant.

Civil servants are not sent to front lines commonly.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#237

Post by Arodex »

amysox wrote: post #41
dylan604 wrote: post #5

Opening graph: "We should, as a society, seriously consider moving away from an all-volunteer force and only fight the next war if everyone shares in the risk and the cost," says military contractor and all-around surveillance-enabler Palantir. If that's the case, then every war to be fought needs to have the say so of those that will be doing the fighting and not the solitary decision made by a delusional leader tha…

Robert Heinlein proposed something like that in his "lost" novel For Us, the Living: instead of declaring war, Congress would authorize a war referendum, in which only those eligible for military service could vote. The catch was, everyone voting "Yes" would thereby automatically sign themselves up in the military for the duration. If a further draft was needed, it would first be composed of those that didn't vote, a…

It seems a good idea, but then I remember the history of World War I: the French and the German populations were very happy and willing to go to war (especially the French). A quick war that will settle it, they thought. And then they ended up in one of the worst meatgrinders of history.

Even if they had a referendum system such as the one proposed, I don't think that would make it a better decision. And given how people don't assume the consequences of their decisions, they would just find excuses later on - "we were manipulated, they lied to us" - but the damage will still be done.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#238

Post by TrackerFF »

gbnwl wrote: post #225
TrackerFF wrote: post #215

Having grown up in Norway, I did my conscription when I was 18. Not really a big deal - even though I was incredibly unmotivated in the beginning. Back in the old days (read: Cold War days) everyone had to serve, but then as Russia became less of a threat, so did military funding, and the number of conscripted. Today around 15%-20% will be conscripted. But interestingly enough, for the past 10 years we've seen a tren…

I'd wager that being conscripted in Norwary carries a different level of risk of deployment than being conscripted in the US, given the fact that we've been essentially been nonstop involved in wars for my entire lifetime. When you were conscripted did you fear you might be sent to Iraq or Afganistan? It just feels like given our history an American conscript will litearlly always have some active warzone to possibly…

I did my service right around the time GWOT started, and it was around this time that our military started to focus more on transitioning to a professional (we do have professional units) military aimed at fighting terrorism in the middle east(Afghanistan/ISAF) as part of our NATO duties.

By the time you were finishing up your service (6-12 months depending on where you were stationed), you'd get a presentation on "the road ahead" if you wanted to continue military life: military school/college, become a professional soldier, etc.

With that said, I think maybe 10%-15% of the guys in our platoon decided to go with the Afghanistan route. IIRC that meant transferring / trying out for the professional battalion (TMBN), training for some time, and then deployed.

I don't think sending all conscripted soldiers to some foreign war will yield good results. But I do think that by the end of their service, some will be hyped up and "thirsty" enough to just go for it.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#239

Post by theshrike79 »

_doctor_love wrote: post #20

Other countries have compulsory military service, for example Finland. Generally speaking I am a fan of the idea that everyone should be required to do some kind of community service for 2 years once they turn 18. Military service would just be one option, could be other kinds of civic engagement. This can really help people feel connected to their society and understand that there is something to show up for. BUT -…

The Finnish compulsory service is 6-13 months depending on what field you pick (or are assigned in).

There's also "civilian service" available which is always 12 months in a governmental location somewhere. Schools, hospitals etc.

Re: Palantir Wants to Reinstate the Draft

#240

Post by pllbnk »

criddell wrote: post #11

Wars used to be paid for by raising taxes. Now we have no idea how much they cost. How many years in a row has the Pentagon failed it's audit? How many years (decades?) was the Iraq war funded through annual (unbudgeted) emergency measures? How many trillions in promised healthcare does America owe its veterans? If the President had to make the case that taking on Iran would cost each American around $1000 on top of…

There are no wars, just military conflicts. Palantir doesn't care how they are called, as long as they get the government's contracts. They are not interested in fewer wars/conflicts.
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