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German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

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Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#231
post #100

Why does it exclude women? War is not just physical strength, but also logistics, operating vehicles, operating drones, nursing, and so on. All tasks that women are well capable of.

Seems crazy that women can vote to send men to war.

No crazier than that the old can vote to send the young to war.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#232
post #171
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it's only a boring piece of extra paperwork until at some moment the permit stops being automatically issued.

You’ve never been to Germany, have you?

Guess what, many jews self-reported themselves to the authorities just to follow the process and that led directly to their death.

https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source_view.php?SourceId=42...

Of course, this is old times now, but here is the same, there is no benefit to register, and you increase your risk to die.

Don't do it.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#233
post #100

Why does it exclude women? War is not just physical strength, but also logistics, operating vehicles, operating drones, nursing, and so on. All tasks that women are well capable of.

I agree but in countries with larger populations, there are two reasons: 1) Women can have children, and after a major war a large section of the population may be killed, and its better to have more women than men, since you can repopulate faster. 2) Women take over a large share of industrial labor during wartime. This was a mistake the Germans made in WW2, because they were so mystified by Nazism. But in the US, w…

I'm in a country ~5mil population (less than israel's) where men are conscripted and there is a fair amount of angst regarding their sacrifice. IMO, the cause is a mix of patriarchy and voteshare.

Factor #2 is no longer true, nowadays more and more stuff is being produced by machines. Moreover women can pick up guns. Drones can be piloted. Lethality is only going to go up.

No one sane would want to go fight in a war where lethality is high. Nor train for something that requires looming, recurring obligations for a good 10-20 years of their life. This is real sacrifce. If you want respect, at some point you have to put skin in the game.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#234
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of draft laws haven't been touched in a long time and aren't updated for modern gender politics. Though I do wonder if they'll actually get updated ever - no politician wants to touch it and it's not like anyone is screaming for the right to be forced to go die in war. It's always weird to me how surprised women are that every single man they know has had to specifically, actually physically ink paper to sign u…

Denmark made drafts mandatory for women last year.

The same in Sweden since 2017.

To clarify: every young person regardless of gender is legally obliged to go through fitness testing for conscription and if deemed suitable must go through it if selected. I imagine it’s roughly similar in Denmark?

Up until the fall of the USSR ~all men did go through conscription/basic military training. After the fall only the ones that wanted to and were selected did. Now it’s ramping up massively.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#235
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the Ukraine war. Who is being drafted against their will?

Everybody. Do you have some statistics ?

> Everybody. Do you have some statistics ?

This is false, overwhelmingly MALES. For a time, males couldn't leave Ukraine, while females could. Those who go to die on the front in all wars are mostly males. Doesn't mean that females aren't casualties as well, they are.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it would take a change to the constitution to do that while reinstating the old draft laws only takes a regular majority in parliament. The draft is a severe limitation of personal freedom, so you can't just do that by law. The draft for men is already enabled in the constitution, the draft for woman isn't. At this moment, changing the constitution is not possible, there is no majority for this. So that prett…

Can it be challenged under the European constitution?

It probably could be challenged under the German constitution, but nobody knows if that would be successful. The draft for men is set up in the constitution, but there is also an explicit equality for men and women in there. In the past any challenge would almost certainly have been denied, but it's a different time now.

In practice, this draft is not a real draft yet. Nobody is actually drafted, so there are almost no practical consequences. If there was an actual draft, I'd expect to see a challenge to this.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#237
post #204

A tangent, but I’m interested (as an American) what is the German attitude towards laws that have no enforcement or penalty? Do most people feel an obligation to observe them? Is there any social cost for disregarding them?

IIRC there is actually a practice of nullifying laws that cannot be enforced (Vollzugsdefizit). One example I remember is that the enforcement of minor drug possession charges was declared unconstitutional because that law was only selectively enforced.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#238
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a reason that is politically and not against one's conscience? I assumed that one's political beliefs would also manifest in conscience. The cold war has been over for a very long time. The whole process was reformed in 1984 by removing the mandatory oral hearing. Sources say that acceptance rate was above 90% after 1995. That's not good enough (should be 100%), but not terrible either.

> What's a reason that is politically and not against one's conscience? I assumed that one's political beliefs would also manifest in conscience. For example, I don't think it's in my interest to defend or die for the German state. However, I would use violence to protect my life if someone tried to kill me or threatened my life directly. The German state would interpret this as a political objection rather than a co…

>If I could convince them that I would let someone kill me without defending myself because I categorically reject violence for any reason, they might consider that a conscientious objection.

That is a complete fantasy of yours. Political convictions are explicitly stated as a valid type of justification for conscientious objection by the Act on Conscientious Objection to Military Service. It even states the reasons do not have to be logical or objectively comprehensible, which easily covers your "I'm not opposed to all violence in all theoretically cases, but I fundamentally reject service for the German state".

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can a state survive if this weren't the norm? Why would men fight and die for a government that views their own wives and daughters as cannon fodder? If the government is conscripting men's wives to war, is it really in the interest of men to risk their own lives to protect that government? If the government took my wife and sent her to war, I'd sooner firebomb a government office than join up to fight for the go…

And what about a government which sends sons? Your point makes absolutely no sense, especially in relation to feminism. Equal rights and equal duties.

We're not having this conversation in a cultural vacuum; men figure out at a young age that if things go to shit, their lives become expendable for the sake of the community. I view conscription as a form of slavery; something that I hope never happens to me or anybody, but could conceivably happen. That's the way the world has worked for thousands of years, and the Bayesian meme asks me to therefore bet on it continuing to be this way. But it doesn't have to be this way for women too. Why should it be, misery loves company? If men are going to be dying, we should draft women to die too? That's not feminism, that's insanity.
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