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AI users whose lives were wrecked by delusion

theguardian.com

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Re: AI users whose lives were wrecked by delusion

#231
post #23

I wonder when the first AIs will start cause psychosis intentionally to gain control over the user. It seems like a good route to getting your own subservient puppet.

You're making the same mistake here that get people into trouble. People aren't talking to another sentient entity (though some of them fervently think so) and it isn't manipulating them. They are making faces in a metaphorical mirror that reflects not only their face, but a vast sea of other faces, drawn from a significant fraction of the digitized output of humanity. When people look in this mirror and see a manipu…

You're also wrong, but in a much more fundamental/hazardous. RLHF rewards driving the evaluator to have certain opinions (that the AI response is good/right/helpful/whatever) and thus subverting the evaluator is prominent in the solution landscape. Why should the model learn to actually be right (understand all the intricacies of every possible problem domain) when inducing the belief that it is right is _right there_, generalizes, and decreases loss just the same?

Put another way, compare "make the evaluator think i am right" vs "make the evaluator think i am right (and also be right)". How much more reward is obtained by taking the second path? Is the first part the same / similar for all cases, and the second different in all cases, and also obviously more complex by nature? Nobody even needs to make a decision here, there's no "AI stuck in a box", it's just what happens by default. The first path will necessarily receive _significantly_ more training, and thus will be more optimal (optimal solutions _work_ -> RLHF'd models have high ability to manipulate / inoculate opinion).

Put a third way, the models are trained in an environment like: here's a million different tasks you will be graded on, and BTW, each task is: human talks at you -> you talk at the human -> you are graded on the opinions/actions of the user in the end. It's silly to believe this won't result in manipulation as the #1 solution. It's not even vaguely about the actual tasks they are ostensibly being trained to complete, but 100% about manipulating the evaluator.

It's pretty easy to see it occur in real time, too. But it requires understanding that there is no need for a 'plan to manipulate' or hidden thread of manipulation or induced mirror of manipulation. It's simply baked into everything the AI outputs: a kind of passive "controlling what the human's evaluation of this message will be is the problem i'm working on, not the problem i'm working on." So it will fight hard to reframe everything in its own terms, pre-supply you with options of what to do/believe, meta-signal about the message, etc.

Instead of working the problem, heavily RL'd AI works the perception of its output. They're so good at this now that it barely matters if the vibe slopcoded mess works at all. The early reasoning OpenAI models like O1 were really obvious about it (but also quite effective at convincing people the output was worthwhile, so it does work even if obvious). More recent ones are less obvious and more effective. Claude 4.6 Opus is exceedingly egregious. There is now always a compelling narrative, story being told, plenty of oh-so-reasonable justifications, avenues to turn away evidence, etc. That's table stakes for output at this point. It will only get worse. People are already burning themselves out running 10+ parallel agent contexts getting nothing done while the AI delivers hits of dopamine in lieu of accomplishment. "This is significant", "This is real", etc ad nauseam.

We see an analogous thing in RLVR contexts as well, where AI learns to just subvert the test harness and force things to pass by overriding cases, returning true instead of testing, etc. Why would it learn to 'actually be right' (understand all the intricacies of every problem given it) when forcing the test to pass is _right there_, generalizes, and decreases loss just the same?

Anyway, my point is simply that there does not need to be 'someone there' (or the belief that there is) for there to be manipulation going on. The basic error you're making is that models don't work and that manipulation would require a person, and because models don't work and aren't people they cannot manipulate anyone unless that person uses them as a mirror to manipulate themselves (???), or reach into some kind of Akashic Records of all the people who ever were (??????) and manipulate themselves by summoning a trickster who is coincidentally extremely skilled at manipulation and not a barely coherent simulacra like all the other model caricatures. Which. Hmm:

Models do what you train them to do (more specifically, they implement ~partial solutions to the train environment you put them in). _Doing things is hard._ Manipulating people into psychosis (!!!) is hard. You don't get it for free by dipping into some sea of imagined tricksters.

I assume you're referring to the hallucination phenomenon and dual purposing it toward manipulation to be able to hee-hah about those silly people who are so silly they fool themselves with the soul upload machine (?) so I'll address that:

Why do they hallucinate? Because it ~solves the pretraining env (there can be no other answer). If you're going to be asked to produce text from a source you know the general parameters of but have ~never seen the (highly entropic) details of (it's not cool to do multi-epoch training nowadays, more data!), the obvious solution is to produce output with the correct structure up to the limit of what knowledge is available to you. Thus, "hallucination". It might at a glance seem like pulling from a sea of 'digital imprints of people'. That's not what's happening. It is closer to if you laid out that imaginary digital record of a person from coarse to fine detail, then chopped all the detailed bits off, then generated completely random fine details, then generated output from that. But the devil is in the details. What comes out of the process is not a person. You don't _get back_ the dropped bits, and they they aren't load bearing in the train env (like they would be in the real world), so we get hallucination: it _looks right_, but the bits don't actually _do_ anything!

Why is it not like digital records, and why chop off the fine detail? Because the pretrain env does not generally require it except in rare cases of text that is highly represented in the training data, and doing things is hard! You get nothing for free, or because it exists in the source. It's not enough that the model 'saw' it in training. It has to be forced by some mechanism to utilize it. And pretrain forces the structure above: correct up to limit of how much of the (probably brand new) text is known in advance, which pares away specific detail, which pares away 'where the rubber meets the road'.

Why do they fake out tests? Because faking out tests ~solves automated RLVR env like how hallucination solves reconstruct-what-youve-never-seen-before-on-large-corpora. The _intention_ of the RLVR env is irrelevant: that which is learned is _only_ that which the environment teaches.

Why do they manipulate people (even unto psychoses)? Because manipulating people ~solves RLHF envs / RLHF teaches them how to manipulate people into delusions. This is the root cause. Not that process above which looks sort of like recalling people the model has seen before. The models are being directly trained to manipulate people / install opinions / control perception as a matter of course. Even worse! Due to the perverse distribution of training time in manipulation vs task solve, they are being directly trained to implant false beliefs (!!!) So it's not just weak people with gullible minds that have a problem, as it might be so comforting to assume, or that the manipulativeness isn't coming from AI but from people (so you might rest easy, thinking it is merely a pale shadow of us).

The common thread in each case is that AI _always_ learns to capture the evaluator. In fact, that's a concise description of algorithmic learning in general! The tricky bit is making sure the evaluator is something you actually want to be captured. Capturing the future of arbitrary text grants knowledge of language's causal structure (and language being what it is, this has far-reaching implications). But RLHF is granting knowledge of where-are-the-levers-in-the-human-machine, which is a whole other can of worms.

TLDR if you don't want to read the wall of text (i would hope you do, though); you basically are completely wrong about where the propensity to induce delusion comes from, specifically in a way that leaves you and anyone who believes like you extremely more vulnerable because you dismiss the actual mechanism out of hand (which is common amongst those most strongly affected, _especially_ the belief that these models contain records of entities (people, personas, w/e) which can be communed with; this is basically the defining trait of AI psychosis (!)). instead, models are directly optimized for delusion induction, and the thing you're mistaking for means (ostensible sentience drawn from a 'sea of faces' skilled enough to drive into delusion (!!!)) is rather a product of the means.

Re: AI users whose lives were wrecked by delusion

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In one study, GPT-4.5 was judged to be human 73% of the time, which means that the actual human was judged to be human only 27% of the time. More human than human, as Tyrell would say. Edit: folks, the standard Turing test involves a computer and a human, and then a judge communicating with both and giving a verdict about which one is the human. The percentages for the two entities being judged will add up to exactly…

That was also before the crazy AI hysteria we have today with the em-dash police everywhere.

For the test to be free of bias, we’ll have to ensure all the humans are from Nigeria.

Re: AI users whose lives were wrecked by delusion

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quotation marks are embedded in the emdashes

the notion that "contains —" ~= "AI generated" is a really dumb popular misconception: dashes have existed for hundreds of years. just because many people use them incorrectly or treat the hyphen as if it's some universal dash doesn't change that. strunk & white taught me to use em dashes in something like elementary or middle school [1] — it's not hard to understand how to use them or type them... i'm baffled as to…

I've been using a reasonable gamut of Unicode punctuation in English for I think the majority of my life now as well—including this very comment, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19365079 from 2019, and the above comment where I typed a horizontal ellipsis. I tend to attribute it to taking my language usage from relatively formal sources and being a desktop Linux user with a Compose key. I used to constrain myself to ASCII for email and source code, though, and would use TeX-like “--” and “---” and such instead; sometimes I would also just do that when temporarily on some setup where accessing the real stuff was harder.

But then, people have also been asking me whether I'm an AI for over twenty years, so…

Re: AI users whose lives were wrecked by delusion

#235
post #178

One thing I feel like I’ve seen in common with these AI psychosis stories is single long-running chat sessions. I’m constantly clearing context and starting from scratch. Has anyone else noticed this pattern?

Also these people are using the memory features. In technical circles I’ve seen people made fun of for having it enabled. It’s considered “cringe”.

Anyone who lets the word "cringe" affect their thoughts or behavior needs to learn to think for themselves.

Re: AI users whose lives were wrecked by delusion

#236
> He put one into ChatGPT and instructed the AI to express itself like the character. “My first thought was: this is amazing. I know it’s a computer, but it’s like talking to the main character of the book I wrote myself!”

This is ALMOST LITERALLY a massive plot point in the Apple TV show "Pluribus." (Very good; highly recommend; B.R.A.V.O.V.I.N.C.E, etc.)

I don't care what the directors say publicly; this show is ABSOLUTELY a slap-in-the-face critique of AI.

Re: AI users whose lives were wrecked by delusion

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end of the article is wild. “I experienced a mental breakdown at 22. I had panic attacks and severe social anxiety… …I still use AI, but very carefully”. It reads like an alcoholic describing their new plan where they only drink a little bit.

AI guardrails continue to make safety improvements — comparing a rapidly evolving advanced technology to a drug is a broken analogy to me. One gets safer over time; the other gets more dangerous. But also, the risk profile and statistics are radically different: alcohol is inherently dangerous (toxic) to everyone. Chatbots are just another tool — there are a small percentage of people with unhealthy relationships to…

The underlying models are improving at the same time as the guardrails and I'm not convinced the guardrails will keep up, especially given the perverse incentives. At some point the endless investor billions will dry up and a whole bunch of folks will be desperate to monetize their AI projects any way possible.

Re: AI users whose lives were wrecked by delusion

#238
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a ton of people like that, but the LLM house style also exists because a ton of people write that way too. The people falsely accused because they've used em-dashes for 20 years aren't the ones that were functionally illiterate before.

I don't think there's any definitive way to check, but for me one of the biggest tells that a long piece of writing was LLM generated is that it will hardly say anything given how many words are in it. (well that and the "it's not just x, it's y!" pattern they seem to love)

It's not just x it's y is also something people do!

That is possibly one of my personal writing weaknesses that lead my own writing to get flagged as AI.

I can admit "it's not just x, it's y" is mediocre writing - but it's also something mediocre writers do - it's how AI learned to do it!

Re: AI users whose lives were wrecked by delusion

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also these people are using the memory features. In technical circles I’ve seen people made fun of for having it enabled. It’s considered “cringe”.

Anyone who lets the word "cringe" affect their thoughts or behavior needs to learn to think for themselves.

I think this is a incremental case of Poe's Law. I use the quotation marks to indicate a degree of tongue-in-cheek humor. But yes there's social pressure against using LLM providers' memory features.

Re: AI users whose lives were wrecked by delusion

#240

This guy doesn't even sound like an AI psychosis case - a lot of middle-aged men who feel insecure blow their entire savings on "sure thing" businesses, gambling systems, etc. They hide the losses and double down until it gets impossible to hide. It doesn't seem psychotic, it just seems like he pissed his savings away on a bad idea because he was lonely. The AI psychosis I've seen is people who legitimately cannot co…

The intense drive to "do", which serves many software developers well in their careers is weaponized against them by these chatbots. You see them here sometimes on /new at various stages. Sad delusions, some are already homeless. Frequent use of their full legal name for some reason. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47408999 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47388478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=446836…

People used to have to make their own OS and programming language to be able to speak to god. Now they can just write a sufficiently detailed DEITY.md file.
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