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An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

openttd.org

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Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#231

Post by anthk »

somat wrote: post #218
II2II wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Society has become quite 'entitled' to 'free' things. As popular as they are, torrents and free streams and emulation and clones of games in an open source lib are all stealing something. I know thats an unpopular thing to say but it a fact. Emulators and game engine clones may encourage "stealing", but they are also unique creations. The people who develop said software are typically careful about keeping their so…

Ehh, it's not theft, it's copyright infringement. And in the case of openttd, it's not the engine that has the legal problem, it's the graphics and the sound. Openttd is an engine to play transport tycoon content. If openttd distributes transport tycoon's graphics and sound, (which they were) they are infringing on the owners right to distribute. Update, I got openTTD confused with openRCT, It looks like openttd did…

>which they were)

1) No, is not the case, stop the FUD.

2) Simutrans it's half propietary and a good atempt of SPAM, dear friend.

3) Ok, fair, you corrected yourself. But on OpenTTD the OpenSFX and the rest are actually a way to create both compatible graphics and sounds with the existing MODs and stand out as themselves, kinda like FreeDoom: it's obviously made to be compatible with the Doom assets for walls and the like, but the artwork it's closer to a modern HL than Doom. FreeDoom needs to be like a weird Doom in a parallel universe for floors, walls and the like because PWADs demand it so the art looks like compatible (texturing, tiling, lightning) while not being an obvious Doom rip off. And yet it does, I played lots of classic Doom2 compatible PWADs and TC's and the FreeDoom assets perfectly blend ingame. Strain.wad looks even greater.

Look: https://freedoom.github.io/

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#232

Post by anthk »

Scaevolus wrote: post #206
matheusmoreira wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> clones of games in an open source lib are all stealing something It's not illegal to create a compatible game engine. The functional ideas inside the games are not protected by copyright. So long as games are clean room reverse engineered there should be no problem. Actually, even if the reverse engineering was not clean room, it might not be a problem. Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corp. > The object co…

That's a narrow fair use exception. Many of these open game engines are effectively 1:1 decompilations of the original games, and it would be shocking if they were not effectively copyrighted the same as the original. I don't think this has been tested in court, but the recent flood of Nintendo game decompilations is likely to change that.

Pre BSD's (386BSD) where in the same case with AT&T Unix and after a few years of rewritting code under BSD licenses they were perfectly ok to ship, from NetBSD 0.9 to FreeBSD, OpenBSD was a NetBSD fork.

Current OpenTTD has no former TTD code since decades ago. I remember Solene@ from OpenBSD (now ex-user) playing OpenTTD for MacPPC (PowerPC G4) a few years ago as she had in issue with mouse input.

Good luck running decompiled X86 code as is.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#233

Post by anthk »

gmueckl wrote: post #205
JoshTriplett wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Behavior" isn't copyrightable; it explicitly isn't, in fact. To what extent did they copy "appearance" other than supporting the use of the original assets? It is certainly possible that they didn't scrupulously maintain clean hands, but I wouldn't automatically assume that.

Show a set of random persons gameplay video clips from TTD and OpenTTD in its default settings and ask them which one of the two games they are watching. They'll be struggling. It is about the entirety of the product, not its parts.

That's the point of game engine reimplementations, but again OpenTTD has no original TTD worlds.

Simcity 2000/3000 and Lincity-NG can look pretty close at a distance too, the same with FreeCIV and Civilization 2000.

If the issue it's due to the menu layout and such that can be set with ease, GUI presets from original TTD and a 'new' one (as default) and call it done.

Arx Fatalis itself it's a Ultima Underworld inspired clone. It's more than obvious. Deus Ex it's a weird Shadowrun retelling with better hacking depictions replacing the magic shadow ruling overlods with a panopticon AI and ripping off every US conspiracy from the XFiles.

Both RPG's can be played in pretty much the same way: half stealth/half run and gun depending on your mood, augmentations, hacking to retrieve useful info, doing secondary errands, the cyberpunk theme...

Halo does the same with Marathon and Bioshock borrows a lot from System Shock.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#234

Post by iso1631 »

adolph wrote: post #203
imp0cat wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what did you discover on hn? Let me show you https://www.oldunreal.com/ ;)

I'm glad to have opend that link. Brought back memories. head-shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKgyH9k1CSM

TO me, UT is a modern game -- probably the last FPS I bought (well Elite Force which I think was based on UT)

I was more of a DN3D person. Laptop and a desktop, connected via a serial cable, great fun. Computer gaming was far more social in the 90s.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#235

Post by IshKebab »

singpolyma3 wrote: post #186
IshKebab wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same way that "you kids aren't allowed to skate here, but maybe if you do it over there I could just turn around and not notice you" isn't a threat.

"you kids can't skate here" is the threat part.

That's just stretching the definition of "threat" beyond its normal meaning.

If I tell my kids "it's bedtime" is that a threat?

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#236

Post by singpolyma3 »

IshKebab wrote: post #235
singpolyma3 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you kids can't skate here" is the threat part.

That's just stretching the definition of "threat" beyond its normal meaning. If I tell my kids "it's bedtime" is that a threat?

If they say "no" are you gonna let them stay up?

If not then it may not be a literal threat but it contains the implied threat

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#238

Post by adolph »

iso1631 wrote: post #234
adolph wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad to have opend that link. Brought back memories. head-shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKgyH9k1CSM

TO me, UT is a modern game -- probably the last FPS I bought (well Elite Force which I think was based on UT) I was more of a DN3D person. Laptop and a desktop, connected via a serial cable, great fun. Computer gaming was far more social in the 90s.

Yeah, I never got into DN3D, maybe b/c it was Windows only? I might be misremembering, but I played UT on Mac with friends by setting up AppleTalk using rj11 adapters. My now-spouse called it the game before the game and it was perhaps more social than the actual game.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#239

Post by Closi »

anthk wrote: post #222
Closi wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This list might just be survivor bias though - it only includes the projects where they didn’t get sued and taken down (either because the developer was ok with them, or because they strayed far enough into fair use). There are clear counter examples - see Tengen vs Nintendo, Nintendo vs Palworld, Microsoft vs halo inspired games, Microsoft vs Minecraft clones. Most are settled out court. Examples that go to court te…

The actual list at https://osgameclones.com it's so huge that literally invalidates any point stated by HN commenters ignoring that, yes, Giana Sisters for the C64 was taken down but after that several Mario shareware clones existed for PC and a few years later we even got Supertux and, in the 2000's, Secret Maryo Chronicles which got renamed in order to avoid any issues with "Mario" as a TM, but the gameplay was 99%…

Giving a list of examples doesn’t mean this example is legal or would stand up in court.

Other than the fact that most of these are very different situations, but even if they were the same it is like saying “snorting coccaine is legal because I can give a list of celebrities that have done it and have not been arrested”

The examples that are similar - eg FreeCiv, imo probably survive because of the decisions and polices of the original publisher rather than some magical legal protection which allows you to make 1:1 copies without being sued.

TuxRacer isn’t really a copy of anything, and an OS or computer utility will likely be treated in a materially different way to a computer game by a court of law.

Re: An update on Steam / GOG changes for OpenTTD

#240

Post by anthk »

Closi wrote: post #239
anthk wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual list at https://osgameclones.com it's so huge that literally invalidates any point stated by HN commenters ignoring that, yes, Giana Sisters for the C64 was taken down but after that several Mario shareware clones existed for PC and a few years later we even got Supertux and, in the 2000's, Secret Maryo Chronicles which got renamed in order to avoid any issues with "Mario" as a TM, but the gameplay was 99%…

Giving a list of examples doesn’t mean this example is legal or would stand up in court. Other than the fact that most of these are very different situations, but even if they were the same it is like saying “snorting coccaine is legal because I can give a list of celebrities that have done it and have not been arrested” The examples that are similar - eg FreeCiv, imo probably survive because of the decisions and pol…

No, your example can't stand out a simple analysis since both GNU and BSD reimplemented propietary UNIX without the original code, as the OpenTTD rewrite is. How come OpenTTD works on a G4 PowerPC arch if the original code was written in x86 assembly?

GNU AWK it's literally copycat of Unix AWK having all of the functionality of the original AWK without being bound to the original source. So is GCC vs any vendored Unix 'cc', 'ld' and 'as', where GNU GAS was the alternative.

Again, there's GNU Bash against Unix SH, with the same exact flags for interoperativity. Ditto with Alpine against Pine, or GNU Nano against Pico with the literal same interface, commands and layout. And these are older than TTD itself.

Should I go in? Lesstif against Motif. If you installed Lesstif tons of Motif stuff would work straightly as is, as XPDF did. Another one? XMMS. Once you skinned both the were the same.

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