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Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

wsj.com

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Re: Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

#231

Post by O1111OOO »

Please stop overthinking and listening to publications that insist on creating some kind of a caste system.

I didn't bother to even read the article (it's behind a paywall, I don't read articles with nonsense headlines).

There is this need to separate the behavior of wealthy/powerful people vs those who are poorer/hold less powerful positions.

The behavior's the same when it comes to writing and sending messages. I've dealt with both consistently and constantly over several decades.

Re: Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

#232

Post by quesera »

bjackman wrote: post #140

I see this at my $megagorp job. The top brass don't do that much written communication, but when they do they are absolutely shooting from the hip. It's not as bad as Epstein but it's a strong "I've already started reading the next email while I'm typing this one" vibes. FWIW I don't have a problem with it at all. As the article mentioned there's an aspect of power politics (I'm important enough not to have to worry…

> capitalisation is just unimportant

Capitalization is the difference between:

  - helping your friend Jack off a horse, and
  - helping your friend jack off a horse.
(Not original, but memorable!)

Re: Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

#233

Post by RhysU »

janalsncm wrote: post #172
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is funny that spelling and grammar matter more when writing to an admissions officer than to a potential business partner Things that matter in academia world don't always matter in the real world and vice versa.

Right, the deeper question is why it “matters” in academia and not business. Because in some sense academia is the real world.

Proper grammar on formulaic language is a proof-of-work system. Difficult to achieve but easy to check. It suggests that the author cared enough to put in the time. When the cost of graduate labor is low, careful editing suggests that you can burn a student's time to demonstrate the message is worth reading.

Re: Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

#234

Post by falcor84 »

z500 wrote: post #200
howlingfantods wrote: post #23

Grammar at its best promotes clear communication but more often is used as a social tool of control and exclusion. When you are already talking to people within your in-group, that impulse isn’t necessary.

Everyone uses grammar. What you're describing is elitism and elevating one particular dialect above all others.

According to the wide definition of grammar, everyone uses some grammar, but nevertheless it's not a category error to say "*this sentence got grammar mistake".

When we speak about the grammar for a language/dialect we imply a prescribed "correct" grammar for a particular community of speakers.

Re: Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

#235

Post by gwern »

janalsncm wrote: post #224
gwern wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also just differing levels of relevance. You don't talk with a businessman or investor or famous people in general because of their writing; if you made a list of relevant skills, 'proper spelling when quickly texting from a phone' surely doesn't crack even the top ten thousand skills. In academia, on the other hand, writing a formal application properly is a core skill.

If you were applying to YC, would you capitalize the answers to their questions?

I would have to consider carefully if I thought I was a high-enough quality candidate that it would be interpreted as a countersignal rather than a signal.

If I, gwern, specifically, were to apply, I might; because I know I am widely read on HN and I've talked with any number of YC partners etc, and they all know I take care in writing, and so me not capitalizing is a deliberate message rather than laziness or incompetence. They may or may not appreciate the message, but they won't infer the usual things, at least.

If I were anyone else and my application just one of thousands in the flood? You'd better believe I'd capitalize and spellcheck my YC application: https://gwern.net/blog/2023/good-writing

Re: Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

#236

Post by jbl0ndie »

radpanda wrote: post #110
bluepeter wrote: post #22

British aristocracy has been pronouncing their own surnames wrong for centuries on purpose. Cholmondeley is "Chumley" Featherstonehaugh is "Fanshaw." If you read it phonetically you mark yourself as an outsider. The misstake is the membership card. (Heck, even in Portland we locals hear about misprouncing Couch St probably every year in local press as some bar for membership to our own locals only vibe.)

I don't really see that as the same thing as what the article was pointing out. Those are shibboleths that only an insider would know. You have to get the pronunciation of Cholmondeley or Couch "right" to pass for an insider. The random misspellings, missing spaces, sloppy grammar, etc in the examples in the article seem different to me. Misspelling "en route" as "enriewu" doesn't show, "look, I know the secret count…

You could also blame the constant negative press covfefe

Re: Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

#237

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway94275 wrote: post #189
stackghost wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Cholmondeley is "Chumley" Featherstonehaugh is "Fanshaw." If you read it phonetically you mark yourself as an outsider. This is a monstrous crime against language.

well how do you say Newfoundland? Soon it will be said "Noovlan"

[deleted]

Re: Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

#238

Post by ChoGGi »

stackghost wrote: post #215
throwaway94275 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well how do you say Newfoundland? Soon it will be said "Noovlan"

People from there generally pronounce it "New-fund-LAND", people from the rest of (english) Canada tend pronounce it "NEW-fund-land". It's still got three syllables.

I tend to go with "Newfn-lan".

Re: Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

#239

Post by al_borland »

I don’t know why this needs to be a class issue. Using auto-correct as a scapegoat for spelling and grammar issues has now made them socially acceptable to the point that most people don’t call it out anymore, or use it as a means to discredit someone’s underlying argument.

As auto-correct has become seemingly worse, I think a lot of people have just given up fighting it all the time.

Re: Why the global elite gave up on spelling and grammar

#240

Post by lnx01 »

radpanda wrote: post #110
bluepeter wrote: post #22

British aristocracy has been pronouncing their own surnames wrong for centuries on purpose. Cholmondeley is "Chumley" Featherstonehaugh is "Fanshaw." If you read it phonetically you mark yourself as an outsider. The misstake is the membership card. (Heck, even in Portland we locals hear about misprouncing Couch St probably every year in local press as some bar for membership to our own locals only vibe.)

I don't really see that as the same thing as what the article was pointing out. Those are shibboleths that only an insider would know. You have to get the pronunciation of Cholmondeley or Couch "right" to pass for an insider. The random misspellings, missing spaces, sloppy grammar, etc in the examples in the article seem different to me. Misspelling "en route" as "enriewu" doesn't show, "look, I know the secret count…

The "enriewu" thing wasn't a misspelling of "en route", it was someone's name who had arrived in Miami with Jean-Luc and Peggy. It's probably a misspelling of Henry pronounced in French.
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