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The changing goalposts of AGI and timelines

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231–240 of 411 posts

Re: The changing goalposts of AGI and timelines

#231

Mission statements and blog posts are meaningless. Cap tables steer behavior and simultaneously protect interests. Stop forming unions or opining on Hacker News. We need to find a way to get citizens on the cap table in a meaningful way (and not at the very, very, very, very end of the waterfall underneath debt holders, hedge funds, governments, preferred investors). We are building this world for us. As it stands, d…

In other words: democracy.

Uh no, not at all. First of all, America is a Republic. Republics with capitalist economies express power through property ownership, not simply voting. I’m actually arguing ownership is more powerful than even a vote, though you’d certainly want both. You can tell this true by observing that a billionaire in America is more powerful and influential than a factory worker, even though they have the same vote in the democracy.

Re: The changing goalposts of AGI and timelines

#232
post #122

The reality is that current models are simply nowhere near AGI. Next token prediction has been pushed very far, and proven to have applicability far beyond the original domain it was designed for (reasoning models are an application I would not have predicted) but it is fundamentally not AGI. It has no real world model, no ability to learn in any but superficial ways, and without extensive scaffolding this is all ver…

How many months has it been since we were told there would be zero software engineers left in the world in 12 months?

Re: The changing goalposts of AGI and timelines

#233
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That definition is as I said: "something about which no conclusions can be drawn because the proposed definitions lack sufficient precision and completeness." "Highly autonomous systems" and "most economically valuable work" aren't precise enough to be useful. "Highly" implies that there is a continuum, so where does directed end and autonomy begin? "Most economically valuable work"... each word in that has wiggle ro…

It's a definition based on practical results. That's a good definition, because it doesn't require we already know the exact implementation. It doesn't require guessing , in a literal "put your money where your mouth is" way. If it can do things as good as or better than humans, then either the AI has a type of general intelligence or the human does not . Defining capabilities based on outcome rather than implementat…

Do you know how an LLM works? Can you describe it?

Re: The changing goalposts of AGI and timelines

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are overindexing on the integer value given in the parent post, rather than seeing the essence that LLMs in their current form only excel on tasks they have been specifically trained for. Karpathy himself has publicly stated that AGI itself is only possible with a new paradigm (that his group is working toward). He claims RHLF and attention models are near the end of their logarithmic curve. The concept o…

Personally I'm not even sold on the current paradigm being too limited to produce AGI - there are still several OOMs worth of compute increase available, plus the algorithmic improvements have overall been accumulating faster than predicted. But even assuming that a major breakthrough is required, it seems ludicrous to me to go from that to a timeline of a decade or more. This isn't like fusion power research, where…

[deleted]

Re: The changing goalposts of AGI and timelines

#235
post #89

AGI isn't going to happen within the next 30 years so this is moot. The actual researchers have said so many times. It's only the business people and laypeople whooping about AGI always being imminent. You cannot get real, actual AGI (the same ability to perform tasks as a human) without a continuous cycle of learning and deep memory, which LLMs cannot do. The best LLM "memory" is a search engine and document summari…

Given how many "fundamental" limitations of AI have been resolved within the past few years, I'm skeptical. Even if you're right, I am not sure that the limitations you identified matter all that much in practice. I think very few human engineers are working on problems which are so novel and unique that AIs cannot grasp them without additional reinforcement learning. > it will delete all the files in "X/" How many "…

> How many "I deleted the prod database" stories have you seen? Humans do this too.

Humans do it accidentally.

Re: The changing goalposts of AGI and timelines

#236
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nothing actually passes the Turing test Says who? I had already found this study, published almost a year ago, saying that they do: https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.23674 There doesn't seem to be a super-rigorous definition of the Turing Test, but I don't think it's reasonable to require it to fool an expert whose life depends on the correct choice. It already seems to be decently able to fool a person of average intelli…

First of. The Turing test has a rigorous definition. Secondly, it has been debunked for almost half a century at this point by Searle’s Chinese room thought experiment. Thirdly, intelligence it self is a scientifically fraught term with ever changing meaning as we discover more and more “intelligent” behavior in nature (by animals and plants, and more). And to make matters worse, general intelligence is even worse, a…

This is what happens when a field of inquiry is dominated by engineers rather than scientists. "Shut up, it works" is the answer to every question.

Re: The changing goalposts of AGI and timelines

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the mechanistic interpretability findings? I'm not sure how people still say shit like "no real world model" seriously.

People just overstate their understanding and knowledge, the usual human stuff. The same user has a comment in this thread that contains: 'If you actually know what models are doing under the hood to product output that...' Any one that tells you they know 'what models are dong under the hood' simply has no idea what they're talking about, and it's amazing how common this is.

Fair, I should define what I mean by under the hood. By “under the hood” I mean that models are still just being fed a stream of text (or other tokens in the case of video and audio models), being asked to predict the next token, and then doing that again. There is no technique that anyone has discovered that is different than that, at least not that is in production. If you think there is, and people are just keeping it secret, well, you clearly don’t know how these places work. The elaborations that make this more interesting than the original GPT/Attention stuff is 1) there is more than one model in the mix now, even though you may only be told you’re interacting with “GPT 5.4”, 2) there’s a significant amount of fine tuning with RLHF in specific domains that each lab feels is important to be good at because of benchmarks, strategy, or just conviction (DeepMind, we see you). There’s also a lot work being put into speeding up inference, as well as making it cheaper to operate. I probably shouldn’t forget tool use for that matter, since that’s the only reason they can count the r’s in strawberry these days.

None of that changes the concept that a model is just fundamentally very good at predicting what the next element in the stream should be, modulo injected randomness in the form of a temperature. Why does that actually end up looking like intelligence? Well, because we see the model’s ability to be plausibly correct over a wide range of topics and we get excited.

Btw, don’t take this reductionist approach as being synonymous with thinking these models aren’t incredibly useful and transformative for multiple industries. They’re a very big deal. But OpenAI shouldn’t give up because Opus 4.whatever is doing better on a bunch of benchmarks that are either saturated or in the training data, or have been RLHF’d to hell and back. This is not AGI.

Re: The changing goalposts of AGI and timelines

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are overindexing on the integer value given in the parent post, rather than seeing the essence that LLMs in their current form only excel on tasks they have been specifically trained for. Karpathy himself has publicly stated that AGI itself is only possible with a new paradigm (that his group is working toward). He claims RHLF and attention models are near the end of their logarithmic curve. The concept o…

Personally I'm not even sold on the current paradigm being too limited to produce AGI - there are still several OOMs worth of compute increase available, plus the algorithmic improvements have overall been accumulating faster than predicted. But even assuming that a major breakthrough is required, it seems ludicrous to me to go from that to a timeline of a decade or more. This isn't like fusion power research, where…

We’ve been doing AI research since the 1950’s, and as with most other fields there are peaks and valleys. History books are filled with promises of breakthrough that never happened, even though at one time they were all ”very close”.

Re: The changing goalposts of AGI and timelines

#240
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That definition is as I said: "something about which no conclusions can be drawn because the proposed definitions lack sufficient precision and completeness." "Highly autonomous systems" and "most economically valuable work" aren't precise enough to be useful. "Highly" implies that there is a continuum, so where does directed end and autonomy begin? "Most economically valuable work"... each word in that has wiggle ro…

It's a definition based on practical results. That's a good definition, because it doesn't require we already know the exact implementation. It doesn't require guessing , in a literal "put your money where your mouth is" way. If it can do things as good as or better than humans, then either the AI has a type of general intelligence or the human does not . Defining capabilities based on outcome rather than implementat…

What is the as-of date on what work is economically valuable and how much is available?
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