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New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

marginalia.nu

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Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#231

Post by steve_adams_86 »

wavemode wrote: post #186
marginalia_nu wrote: post #157

Fwiw I did some more comparisons, looking for words disproportionately favored by noob comments: word noob new p-value ---------------------------- ai 14.93% 7.87% p=0.00016 actually 12.53% 5.34% p=1.1e-05 code 11.47% 6.04% p=0.00081 real 10.93% 2.95% p=2.6e-08 built 10.93% 2.11% p=2.1e-10 data 8.93% 3.51% p=6.1e-05 tools 7.6% 2.67% p=5.5e-05 agent 7.47% 2.95% p=0.00024 app 7.2% 3.09% p=0.00078 tool 6.8% 1.83% p=8.5e…

It's funny - some months ago I noticed that I use the word "actually" lot, and started trying to curb it from my writing. Not for any AI-related reason, but because it is almost always a meaningless filler word, and I find that being concise helps get my points across more clearly. e.g. "The body of the template is parsed, but not actually type-checked until the template is used." -> "but not typechecked until the te…

I try to curb my usage of 'actually' too. Like you I came to think of it as an indirect, fluffy discourse marker that should be replaced with more direct language.

I'm totally fine with the word itself, but not with overuse of it or placing it where it clearly doesn't belong. And I did that a lot, I think. I suspect if you reviewed my HN comments, it's littered with 'actually' a ton. Also "I think...", "I feel like..." and other kind of... Passive, redundant, unnecessary noise.

Like, no kidding I think the thing I'm expressing. Why state that?

Another problem with "actually" is that it can seem condescending or unnecessarily contradictory. While I'm often trying to fluff up prose to soften disagreement (not a great habit), I'm inadvertently making it seem more off-putting than direct yet kind statements would. It can seem to attempt to shift authority to the speaker, if somewhat implicitly. Rather than stating that you disagree along with what you believe or adding information to discourse, you're suggesting that what you're saying somehow deviates from what the person you're speaking to would otherwise believe or expect. That's kind of weird to do, in my opinion. I'm very guilty of it, though I never had the intent of coming across this way.

It can also seem kind of re-directive or evasive at times, like you don't want to get to the point, or you want to avoid the cost of disagreement. It's often used to hedge statements that shouldn't be hedged. This is mainly what led me to realize I should use it less. I hedge just about everything I say rather than simply state it and own it. When you're a hedger and you embed the odd 'actually' in there, you get a weird mix of evasive or contradictory hedging going on. That's poor and indirect communication.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#232

Post by bubblewand »

randusername wrote: post #219
basch wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are there really places that a comma, super-comma; or (parenthesis) dont work roughly as well? I find the em-dash mildly abhorrent, even before this all.

it's a cadence thing for me Em-dash matches how I speak and think-- frequently a halt, then push onto the digression stack, then pop-- so I use them like that. Em-dash matches how I speak and think (frequently a halt, then push onto the digression stack, then pop) so I use them like that. Em-dash matches how I speak and think, a halt, then push onto the digression stack, then pop, so I use them like that.

I picked it up from Salinger. I find that if I can't eradicate parenthesis by some other means, or if it's more effort to do so than I want to spend, em-dashes usually replace them without doing any harm and aren't quite so ugly, aside from being useful in other cases. In particular, parenthesis at the end of a sentence are awful, while a single em-dash does a similar job much more neatly and looks totally natural.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#234

Post by Lerc »

stronglikedan wrote: post #198
simonw wrote: post #165

The data is available in a SQLite database on GitHub: https://github.com/vlofgren/hn-green-clankers You can explore the underlying data using SQL queries in your browser here: https://lite.datasette.io/?url=https%253A%252F%252Fraw.githu... (that's Datasette Lite, my build of the Datasette Python web app that runs in Pyodide in WebAssembly) Here's a SQL query that shows the users in that data that posted the most comm…

great repo name!

It's worth remembering that you can argue that the use of the word is acceptable now, but can you guarantee that in 30 years time the future world will agree with you to the extent that they let you hold a position of responsibility after using the word 30 years ago.

There is precedent here.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#236

Post by bubblewand »

SkyeCA wrote: post #33

If I see an em-dash in a comment I stop reading and I've seriously considered setting up a filter across multiple sites to remove any comments containing one. I know there are legitimate usecases for the em-dash, but a few paragraphs (at most) of text in an HN/Reddit comment? Into the trash it goes.

Not so long ago, they were just a ~75%-odds tell that the user was typing on a Mac.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#237

Post by reconnecting »

mancerayder wrote: post #132
dematz wrote: post #48

One pattern I've noticed recently is sort of formulaic comments that look okish on their own, maybe a bit abstract/vague/bland, and not taking a particular side on good/bad in the way people like to do, but really obviously AI when you look at the account history and they're all the same formula: >this is [summary] >not just x, it's y >punchy ending, maybe question Once you know it's AI it's very obvious they told it…

What motivation is there to use AI to astroturf (if that's what this is) like this? Is it ideological? Is it product marketing in those relevant threads where someone is showcasing? Or is it pure technical testing, playing around?

tirreno guy here, we develop an open-source fraud prevention / security platform (1).

Sometimes there is no clear explanation for fake account registration. Perhaps they were registered to be actively used in the future, as most fraud prevention techniques target new account registration and therefore old, aged accounts won't raise suspicion.

Slightly off-topic, but there are relatively new `services` that offer native brand mentions in reddit comments. Perhaps this will soon be available for HN as well, and warming up accounts might be needed for this purpose.

1. https://github.com/tirrenotechnologies/tirreno

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#238

Post by edanm »

dang wrote: post #126
d4mi3n wrote: post #50

I'm still salty that I can't use em-dashes anymore for fear of my writing being flagged as AI generated. Been using them for years—it's just `alt+shift+-` on a Mac keyboard and I find them more legible in many fonts compared to the simple dash on the typical numpad. It's so sad to me that good typographical conventions have been co-opted by the zeitgeist of LLMs.

Just do it anyway—I always have, and always will. Well, I haven't always —just for maybe 20 years.

I'm exactly the opposite. It'd been on my todo list for years to one day learn the difference between the different dashes. I kept putting not doing it.

Then came LLMs, and there was so much talk of them using em dashes. A few weeks ago, I finally decided it's time and learned the difference. (Which took all of 2 minutes, btw.) Now I love em dashes and am putting them everywhere I can! Even though most people now assume I'm using AI to write for me.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#239

Post by elzbardico »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #199
mancerayder wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What motivation is there to use AI to astroturf (if that's what this is) like this? Is it ideological? Is it product marketing in those relevant threads where someone is showcasing? Or is it pure technical testing, playing around?

I went through a phase where I milled responses through grinding plates of LLMs. Whether my reasons are shared with others remains unknown. My relationship with writing, while improved, has been a difficult one. Part of me has always felt that there was a gap in my writing education. The choices other writers seem to make intuitively - sentence structure, word choice, and expression of ideas - do not come naturally t…

Did you use AI for this answer?

Because it looks completely adequate for me. Maybe you're not the bad writer you think you are.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#240

Post by adamsilkey »

d4mi3n wrote: post #50

I'm still salty that I can't use em-dashes anymore for fear of my writing being flagged as AI generated. Been using them for years—it's just `alt+shift+-` on a Mac keyboard and I find them more legible in many fonts compared to the simple dash on the typical numpad. It's so sad to me that good typographical conventions have been co-opted by the zeitgeist of LLMs.

I feel the same way. I've used em-dashes in my writing forever, and I was always particular about making sure they were used properly (from a typography standpoint with no surrounding spaces).

But now, I have to be so picky about when I use them, even when I think it's the perfect punctuation mark. I'll often just resort to a single hyphen with spaces around. It's wrong, but it doesn't signal someone to go "AI AI AI!!"

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