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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#231

Post by drnick1 »

iririririr wrote: post #123
TimPC wrote: post #102

Big tech likes this because there are a lot more face recognition technologies in the wild in real life and being able to connect all real life data to online data is quite valuable. It's also quite possibly the largest training set ever for face recognition if ids are stored and given how ids and images are sold across many companies it seems very high probability that some company will retain the data rather than d…

China (and US via latin american countries and it's own poor people ...via benefit programs access via id.gov) is testing both biometrics and device id to evaluate pros and cons, and to merge data, when it come to autocratic control. In china there are places to scan you device and get coupons. usually at elevators in residential buildings so they can track also if you're arriving or leaving easily. In the US every s…

> US now requires cars to report data, which was optional before (e.g. onstar) and china joined on this since the ev boom.

This isn't true, there is no federal requirement for a cellular modem in cars. Most modern cars have one, but nothing prevents you from disabling or removing it. I certainly would not tolerate such a "bug" in by car.

> In the US every store tracks and report to ad networks your Bluetooth ids.

This also isn't true, modern phones randomize Bluetooth identifiers. I personally disable Bluetooth completely.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#232

Post by grvdrm »

coffeefirst wrote: post #94
bondarchuk wrote: post #34

It's kind of weird to me how every article on this topic here has people rushing to comment within a couple minutes with some generic "yes I too support ID checks for internet use!". Has the vibe really shifted so much among tech-literate people?

There’s some nuance here. Realizing that much of the internet is totally toxic to children now and should have a means of keeping them out is distinct from agreeing to upload ID to everything. A better implementation would be to have a device/login level parental control setting that passed age restriction signals via browsers and App Stores. This is both a simpler design and privacy friendly.

I've thought the same.

At least here in US: Google/Apple device controls allow app to request whether user meets age requirements. Not the actual age, just that the age is within the acceptable range. If so, let through, if not, can't proceed through door.

I know I am oversimplifying.

But I like this approach vs. uploading an ID to TikTok. Lesser of many evils?

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#233

Post by akersten »

cromka wrote: post #217
akersten wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, age verification is the "we have to do something about this nebulous problem even if the best thing we can think of actually makes everything worse for everyone but it makes us feel better" fallacy, which is equally ridiculous.

No, it's not the same. There are anonymous solutions that solve this problem that are perfectly acceptable. Not perfect for prevention, but a good compromise nonetheless. Like cig/alcohol underage consumption prevention.

I think we totally disagree on the degree of how much this is actually a problem compared to how much we're willing to invest in it. Those anonymous solutions are fairly idealistic and Nirvana-esque themselves, I don't think they'd see wide adoption. Beyond that I'm firmly in the camp that age verification for the kids is a complete smokescreen for the actual intent of these efforts, which is more surveillance, so on principal I'm opposed to any movement in this direction and doubt we'll find common ground.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#234

Post by horsawlarway »

armchairhacker wrote: post #55

Age verification is very hard, because parents will give their children their unlocked account, and children will steal their parents' unlocked account. If that's criminalized (like alcohol), it will happen too often to prosecute (much more frequently than alcohol, which is rarely prosecuted anyways). I don't see a solution that isn't a fundamental culture shift. If there's a fundamental culture shift, there's an eas…

I don't understand how this is any better.

It's my job as a parent (and I have several kids...) to monitor the things they consume and talk with them about it.

I don't want some blanket ban on content unless it's "age appropriate", because I don't approve that content being banned. (honestly - the idea of "age appropriate" is insulting in the first place)

Fuck man, I can even legally give my kids alcohol - I don't see why it's appropriate to enforce what content I allow them to see.

And I have absolutely all of the same tools you just discussed today. I can lock devices down just fine.

Age verification is a scam to increase corporate/governmental control. Period.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#235

Post by julianozen »

There is missing a solution.

Give our personal devices have the ability to verify our age and identity securely and store on device like they do our fingerprint or face data.

Services that need access only verify it cryptographically. So my iPhone can confirm I’m over 21 for my DoorDash app in the same way it stores my biometric data.

The challenge here is the adoption of these encryption services and whether companies can rely on devices for that for compliance without having to cut off service for those without it set up.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#236

Post by OGEnthusiast »

bilbo0s wrote: post #164
iamnothere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there is some organic support, there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. Governments (and a few companies) really want this.

I think we should be careful of writing off this sea change as simple professional influence campaigns. That kind of thinking is just what got Trump to the Whitehouse, and is currently getting the immigrants rounded up. Things that didn't seem likely to have broad support previously, now are seen as acceptable. In the 90's no one could envision rounding up immigrants. No one could envision uploading an ID card to use…

[dead]

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#237

Post by anjel »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #95
iamnothere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there is some organic support, there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. Governments (and a few companies) really want this.

> Governments (and a few companies) really want this. The cynic in me fears they don't want a privacy-preserving solution, which blinds them to 'who'. Because that would satisfy parents worried about their kids and many privacy conscious folks. Rather, they want a blank check to blackmail or imprison only their opponents.

Add to this that more and more sites and services are hostile to VPN connections and obfuscated email address for account registration. Worse still is that for existing accounts introducing ID req'ts, the next step in these changes is your prior anonymous activity could easily become a retro-liablit.y

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#238

Post by hellojesus »

reliabilityguy wrote: post #196
iamnothere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there is some organic support, there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. Governments (and a few companies) really want this.

> there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. Interesting. Are you saying all the concerns raised by the proponents of ID verification are invalid and meritless? For example, 1. Foreign influence campaigns 2. Domestic influence campaigns 3. Filtering age-appropriate content I’m sure there are many other points with various degree of validity.

If you drive out everyone with identity filters, those folks will naturally flock to sites run in nations without the same controls. I don't think you really solve anything except to push traffic elsewhere.

Instead it would be more appropriate to let sites pass headers, such as "we have adult content", thst you could filter on the network or client side. It's still voluntary, of course. Anyone will just visit sites that don't have the checks if necessary.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#240

Post by badgersnake »

heliumtera wrote: post #62
bondarchuk wrote: post #34

It's kind of weird to me how every article on this topic here has people rushing to comment within a couple minutes with some generic "yes I too support ID checks for internet use!". Has the vibe really shifted so much among tech-literate people?

The audience shifted from tech-literate to the opposite.

Too may in tech for the money that’s for sure. No fundamentals, just drilled leetcode.
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